The Fight

Tonight my son and daughter-in-law came over. He asked if I had received his e-mail. (I hadn’t as I seem to be a bit forgetful in that department…..Hey! I did get Joe’s e-mail today! Thanks for the nudie pics! :) )

In all seriousness, this was the e-mail:

A letter written by John Locke in 1689. This reminded me of your friend who claims to be a constitutionalist but clearly despises Muslims. Locke says,”Let any one have ever so true a claim to all these things, yet if he be destitute of charity, meekness, and goodwill in general towards all mankind, even to those that are not Christians, he is certainly yet short of being a true Christian himself.” Those words from a true lover of liberty. The letter is long. 

http://classicliberal.tripod.com/locke/toleration1.html

Yes, it is long (puts B. to shame.) I guess my son’s been peeking into my other life here. Hmmm…

After speaking on Muslims and our mutual agreement that the middle-eastern Muslims are fundamentalists who are back-asswards in their thinking, the conversation took a different spin…. That would be everyone’s favourite choir boy: Bradley Manning. (Remember; that Wikileaks fella?)

Basically our argument boiled down to me saying that he is consigned to the military and should have obeyed the rules, and my son saying that the rule of law applies equally to him under the Constitution. In other words, he feels that because it is our money, we should know of what the hello is going on over there and be rid of the CIA-style secrecy about what happens. My argument is that national security must have its privacy.

Your thoughts?

 

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18 thoughts on “The Fight

  1. Wasn’t THIS Joe sending you email like that.

    Also, your friend is wrong about me — most likely because you are wrong about me, and that is because you plain, flat refuse to listen to me.

  2. This reminded me of your friend who claims to be a constitutionalist but clearly despises Muslims.

    I don’t believe anyone here “despises Muslims” and even if there is, I’m not sure what that has with being “a constitutionalist”. Even I have stated that I believe that fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with our constitutional form of government.

    I would also suggest that your son read and understand Locke in a deeper manner than just a few excerpts from this letter because in this letter he also states:

    And first, I hold, that no church is bound by the duty of Toleration to retain any such person in her bosom, as after admonition continues obstinately to offend against the laws of the society. For these being the condition of communion, and the bond of society, if the breach of them were permitted without any animadversion, the society would immediately be thereby dissolved. But nevertheless in all such cases care is to be taken that the sentence of excommunication, and the execution thereof, carry with it no rough usage, of word or action, whereby the ejected person may any ways be damnified in body or estate. For all force, as has often been said, belongs only to the magistrate, nor ought any private persons, at any time, to use force; unless it be in self-defence against unjust violence. Excommunication neither does nor can deprive the excommunicated person of any of those civil goods that he formerly possessed. All those things belong to the civil government, and are under the magistrate’s protection. The whole force of excommunication consists only in this, that the resolution of the society in that respect being declared, the union that was between the body and some member, comes thereby to be dissolved; and that relation ceasing, the participation of some certain things which the society communicated to its members, and unto which no man has any civil right, comes also to cease. For there is no civil injury done unto the excommunicated person by the church minister’s refusing him that bread and wine, in the celebration of the Lord’s supper, which was not bought with his, but other men’s money.

    Does Locke hate Muslims, too? Not necessarily, Locke is saying that religion should not be used as an excuse to break the laws of a legitimate society – this is where the opposition to Islam lies for me.

    Your son is right and wrong. Manning took this oath when he joined:

    I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

    That puts him under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, that while is under the Constitution, affirms that he understands that he must obey the authorities of the officers appointed over him and the UCMJ. He voluntarily put himself under the jurisdiction of a subset of the Constitution.

    I disagree that we have a right to know everything – there are matters of national security that must be kept secret, I think we need to do more clandestine work rather than less.

    One of my favorite authors is Vince Flynn – his lead character is a operative named Mitch Rapp – we would be much better off if we had a couple of Mitch Rapps that we could turn loose on the world. I just finished his last book, The Last Man, I highly recommend it if you like spy novels…

    Bradley Manning is a wormy little weasel with a narcissistic disorder. Mommie didn’t hug him enough.

    • But outing a CIA agent is okay, if your guy does it. Cheney should be in the cell next to Manning, and you should agree, if you had any sense of honor, and aren’t just a republican party hack.

      • Interesting Greg … the Obama administration also “outs” CIA agents … as well as British MI6 intelligence agents. Sadly, they were too f*cking stupid to realize it was a sting operation. :)

        No surprise you would ignore the “OTHER” side of the coin. Liberal hack.

            • gracias…yes somebodies are need of a smackdown

              Apparently, the facts about the incident that is the subject of the movie Argo were kept secret for many years afterwards. False credit was even given to the Canadians as part of the cover-up.
              I wonder of our egos haven’t become more needy of gratification in two generations, from the endless news cycle and the celebration of the least accomplishments, so that some people’s need for recognition, a desire to take credit and get on the media bandwagon, leverage that case into some serious cash, has overidden their sense of duty.

          • “No surprise, either, that you offer no link to this story, of which this is the 1st I have ever heard.”

            No surprise, either, that you could not find a single link out of the prolific numbers of links, and yes, I sure it’s the first you have ever heard of it. Maybe, just maybe you should mix up your news a bit differently, and get away from MSDNC and the other Obama-bot news sources.

            Thanks for helping out the disadvantaged in this case Utah, and please accept my apologizes for assuming Greg could take care of himself on this one. I will reimburse you for any Wet Ones you used in taking care of him.

              • Weak excuse for just simply being a dolt. I lead an interesting life outside of these forums too. Allow me to share a little ER story with you:

                Sir, you’re having a heart attack… cardiologist…

                Pt: But I didn’t use any cocaine!

                Me: I never said you did, but since you mentioned it… did you?

                Pt: I think I just busted myself, didn’t I?

                Me: I would’ve found out any way.

                I just really can’t make this shit up. lol

                • That is funny.
                  I have to deal with deckhands who are parochial at best. Recently, we had a new guy on the boat. I could tell from his accent that he was from the West Bank; across the river from New Orleans, but I asked him where he was from anyway.

                  “I’m from Marrero, but we moved.”.
                  “Really?” I said. “Where did you move?”
                  “Westwego’, he replied.
                  “Isn’t that next to Marrero?”” I asked
                  “Yeah”, he said, no trace of irony in his voice.

                  Our pilot, Jerry, asked him if it was hard saying goodbye to all his old friends, and if he ever wrote home.

    • I love Mitch Rapp. I also have a huge crush on Jack Reacher.

      I, too believe some things need to be kept secret. Our discussion became very heated. He actually called me an Obamabot! :shock:

      • Read Gorky Park and Polar Star, then you will have a new love, Arkady Renko, chief investigator for the Moscow police. Gorky Park was made into an excellent movie, with William Hurt as Arkady, Brian Dennehy as a New York cop in Moscow looking for his missing brother, and Lee Marvin as an American furrier with connections in high places. I cannot recommend this series highly enough.

  3. I side with your son. Remember the pentagon Papers? They were secret, but they were about bombing the boo-yah out of North Vietnamese. It wasn’t a secret to the people of north Vietnam that they were being bombed. The secret was being kept from US.
    Same here, Most of the wikileaks files that aren’t just embarrassingly honest and revealing are about operations that are quasi-legal at best. And I don’t know for sure, but i don’t think any of the files were top secret; mostly inter embassy and departmental e-mails.

    • I suppose our biggest disagreement came down to what should be deemed as classified. He’s a staunch Ron Paul fan, and I agreed with some of his arguments. He threw this Artical One Section Eight at me about these wars being unconstitutional, and I agree to a point. This morning I read through that, and it seems a bit ambiguous. At the same time, I thought congress was required to vote on the funding of wars. I told him regardless of that, we are there and we cannot broadcast what the hello we’re going to do; I think that puts our military as well as our country at risk.

      So because I am for keeping secrets I am an Obamabot. Don’t I know about NDAA? Yes, and that’s a horse of a different colour.

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