Trouble In Paradise

If you think that we are wrong to oppose Islam, particularly the radicalization that seems to go hand in hand with it, and that this opposition and concern is uniquely American – think again. What follows is a report from the UK Independent, hardly a US conservative paper:

Trouble in paradise as radical Islam grows in Zanzibar

The rising tide of radical Islamism has sparked growing unrest on the idyllic islands of Zanzibar. Daniel Howden reports from Stone Town

Workmen are raising the walls around the Assemblies of God Church on the outskirts of Zanzibar’s Stone Town. Sweating in the heat and humidity, they have cemented row after row of concrete blocks to a height of some 10 feet. In May this year a violent mob stormed this compound and burned the 500-seater church inside. Six months on from the attack tell-tale licks of black smoke still darken the cross on its repaired walls.

Bishop Dickson Kaganga, who now has bars on the window of his office, says he and his fellow Christians are “living in fear”. The Pentecostal priest, whose car was also torched in the assault, talks darkly of a rising tide of radicalism on the Indian Ocean archipelago once famed for its cosmopolitanism and religious tolerance.

After 16 years work as a missionary on the overwhelmingly Muslim archipelago, the bishop has little doubt who is to blame for the attacks that ruined his church and ransacked several others. He points to the rise of a group calling itself The Awakening, or Uamsho in the islands’ native Swahili. A religious charity which historically confined itself to propagating Islam but has recently entered the political realm with its own brand of faith-based populism. The group’s loud calls for independence from Tanzania and anti-mainlander rhetoric have proven hugely popular. Mr Kaganga insists that they are “advocating chaos”.

The church burnings coincided with the arrest of Uamsho’s leader, the cleric Farid Hadi Ahmed, in connection with an illegal demonstration.

The following day witnessed some of the worst riots seen on Zanzibar.

I agree with Daniel Greenfield – the mistake is to think that the violence that is inherent within Islam can be separated from the root of the religion. It can’t. Islam is a religion of violence built on a heritage of conquest and tyranny.

53 thoughts on “Trouble In Paradise

  1. So we make them danged muslims convert or kill them, right? Wait, they could just pretend to convert, better kill them all, in the name of peace.
    Seriously, the rise of these violence-addicted groups is only exacerbated by the idiocy of blaming all of Islam. This attitude gives moderate muslims no recourse, as if we aren’t their friends, then who is? A perfect example is Iran, a nation that had a sizable population of western-friendly young people, and who actually helped us catch and detain al qaeda operatives after 9/11.
    Now, with sanctions and international pressure in place, those once so pro-western are not so enthused any more. Ian was so close to overthrowing the mullahs and becoming another Turkey, but our placing them in the axis of evil, stopped that drive to modernism.

    • “This attitude gives moderate muslims no recourse, as if we aren’t their friends, then who is?”

      Your answer is in the Qur’an. If not a Muslim, you are an infidel. Accept it, infidel.

        • Greg,

          The reason we cannot have a grown up conversation here is because you will not listen to reason nor accept fact.

          Here are just a few of the sayings/commands from the Qur’an and the Hadith (traditions of Muhammad). Note: the Hadith echo the very nature of what we call “radical Islam.” Given that they were written from the time of Muhammad, this means they represent the true face of Islam. This should pretty much put an end to Greg’s arguing that Islam has been perverted by terrorists — IT HAS NOT!

          Remember, these are just a few of the passages I could have chosenb on this subject:

          1 in every 55 verses in the Qur’an deals with fighting:

          Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
          Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
          Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
          Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
          Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
          Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
          Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'”
          Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
          Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'”
          Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
          Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
          Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”
          Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
          Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
          Tabari VI:139 “Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse ‘And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'”
          Tabari IX:82 “The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”
          Muslim:C9B1N29 “Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: ‘I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.’ Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat.”
          Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'”
          Muslim:C20B1N4597 “The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: ‘There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'”
          Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 “The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: ‘Who is the best of men?’ He replied: ‘A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah’s Cause.'”
          Muslim:C53B20N4717 “The Prophet said: ‘This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'”
          Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
          Qur’an:61:4 “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.”
          Qur’an:4:74 “Let those who fight in Allah’s Cause sell this world’s life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah’s Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.”
          Qur’an:4:76 “Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah.”
          Qur’an:4:84 “Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah’s Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.”
          Qur’an:4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.”


          Terrorism

          Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.'”
          Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
          Qur’an:8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
          Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”
          Qur’an:8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”
          Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.'”
          Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.'”
          Bukhari:V9B87N127 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.'”
          Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their children and woman taken captive.”
          Tabari VIII:129 “After the Messenger had finished with the Khaybar Jews, Allah cast terror into the hearts of the Jews in Fadak when they received news of what Allah had brought upon Khaybar. Fadak became the exclusive property of Allah’s Messenger.”
          Qur’an:33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.”
          Qur’an:59:2 “It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning…they shall taste the torment of Fire.”
          Bukhari:V4B52N256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.'”
          Tabari IX:69 “He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for those who disbelieve, we will fight them forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing them is a small matter to us.”
          Bukhari:V5B59N516 “When Allah’s Apostle fought or raided people we raised our voices saying, ‘Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.'”
          Tabari VII:20
          Ishaq:288 “The Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad and his Companions have violated the sacred month, shed blood, seized property, and taken men captive.’ The polytheists spread lying slander concerning him, saying, ‘Muhammad claims that he is following obedience to Allah, yet he is the first to violate the holy month and to kill our people.'”
          Ishaq:288 “Allah divided the booty stolen from the first caravan after he made spoils permissible. He gave four-fifths to those He had allowed to take it and one-fifth to His Apostle.”
          Tabari VII:29
          Ishaq:289 “The Apostle heard that Abu Sufyan [a Meccan merchant] was coming from Syria with a large caravan containing their money and their merchandise. He was accompanied by only thirty men.”
          Ishaq:289 “Muhammad summoned the Muslims and said, ‘This is the Quraysh caravan containing their property. Go out and attack it. Perhaps Allah will give it to us as prey.”
          Tabari VII:29 “Abu Sufyan and the horsemen of the Quraysh were returning from Syria following the coastal road. When Allah’s Apostle heard about them he called his companions together and told them of the wealth they had with them and the fewness of their numbers. The Muslims set out with no other object than Sufyan and the men with him. They did not think that this raid would be anything other than easy booty.”
          Ishaq:292 “Setting out in Ramadhan, Muhammad was preceded by two black flags. His companions had seventy camels.”
          Tabari VII:55 “Allah’s Messenger went out to his men and incited them to fight. He promised, ‘Every man may keep all the booty he takes.’ Then Muhammad said, ‘By Allah, if any man fights today and is killed fighting aggressively, going forward and not retreating, Allah will cause him to enter Paradise.’ Umayr, who was holding some dates in his hand and eating them, said, ‘Fine, fine. This is excellent! Nothing stands between me and my entering Paradise except to be killed by these people!’ He threw down the dates, seized his sword, and fought until he was slain.”
          Tabari VII:56 “‘Messenger of Allah, what makes the Lord laugh with joy at his servant?’ He replied, ‘When he plunges his hand into the midst of an enemy without armor.’ So Auf took off the coat of mail he was wearing and threw it away. Then he took his sword and fought the enemy until he was killed.”
          Ishaq:301 “As the Muslims were laying their hands on as many prisoners as they could catch, the Prophet, saw disapproval in the face of Sa’d. He said, ‘Why are you upset by the taking of captives?’ Sa’d replied, ‘This was the first defeat inflicted by Allah on the infidels. Slaughtering the prisoners would have been more pleasing to me than sparing them.'”
          Ishaq:315 “It was so criminal, men could hardly imagine it. Muhammad was ennobled because of the bloody fighting. I swear we shall never lack soldiers, nor army leaders. Driving before us infidels until we subdue them with a halter above their noses and a branding iron. We will drive them to the ends of the earth. We will pursue them on horse and on foot. We will never deviate from fighting in our cause. We will bring upon the infidels the fate of the Ad and Jurhum. Any people that disobey Muhammad will pay for it. If you do not surrender to Islam, then you will live to regret it. You will be shamed in Hell, forced to wear a garment of molten pitch forever!”
          Ishaq:349 “The battle will tell the world about us. Distant men will heed our warning. The infidels may cut off my leg, yet I am a Muslim. I will exchange my life for one with virgins fashioned like the most beautiful statues.”
          Ishaq:357 “Their leaders were left prostrate. Their heads were sliced off like melons. Many an adversary have I left on the ground to rise in pain, broken and plucked. When the battle was joined I dealt them a vicious blow. Their arteries cried aloud, their blood flowed.”
          Tabari VII:81 “The next day I went to the Prophet. He was sitting with Abu Bakr, and they were weeping. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, tell me, what has made you weep? If I find cause to weep, I will weep with you, and if not, I will pretend to weep because you are weeping.’ The Prophet said, ‘It is because of the taking of ransoms. It was laid before me that I should punish them instead.’ Allah revealed: ‘It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land.’ After that Allah made booty lawful for them.”
          Qur’an:3:150 “Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!”

          War

          Ishaq:208 “When Allah gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of submission. Now we bound themselves to war against all mankind for Allah and His Apostle. He promised us a reward in Paradise for faithful service. We pledged ourselves to war in complete obedience to Muhammad no matter how evil the circumstances.”
          Ishaq:472 “Muhammad’s Companions are the best in war.”
          Qur’an:8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.'”
          Qur’an:8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'”
          Qur’an:8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
          Qur’an:8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think that they can bypass (the law or punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot get away.” [Another translation reads:] “The unbelieving infidels should not think that they can bypass Islam; surely they cannot escape.”
          Ishaq:204 “‘Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?’ ‘Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.'”
          Ishaq:471 “We are steadfast trusting Him. We have a Prophet by whom we will conquer all men.”
          Qur’an:4:77 “Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?”
          Ishaq:322 “Allah said, ‘Do not turn away from Muhammad when he is speaking to you. Do not contradict his orders. And do not be a hypocrite, one who pretends to be obedient to him and then disobeys him. Those who do so will receive My vengeance. You must respond to the Apostle when he summons you to war.”
          Qur’an:67:20 “Who is he that will send an army to assist you besides Ar-Rahman?”
          Tabari IX:115 “The military expeditions (Ghazawat) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven.”
          Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with unbelieving Infidels in battle, strike and overpower them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, make them prisoners in bondage until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded. He lets you fight in order to test you. Those who are slain in Allah’s Cause will never have their deeds go to waste.”
          Muslim:C34B20N4669 “The Prophet said: ‘He who equips a warrior in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights and he who looks after the family of a warrior in the Allah’s Cause in fact participated in the battle.'”
          Ishaq:322 “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who reject Me. So strike off their heads and cut off their fingers. All who oppose Me and My Prophet shall be punished severely.”
          Qur’an:5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption, making mischief in the land [those who refuse to surrender to Islam] is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. That is their degradation and disgrace in this world. And a great torment of an awful doom awaits them in the hereafter. Except for those who repent (and become Muslims) before you overpower them and they fall into your control.”

          • you asked for it, B

            The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth
            .
            And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
            19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

            Your holy Bible is okay with incest, too:
            19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
            19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
            19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

            Guys that pull knives out to kill their kids are sickos who hear voices, not spiritual role models
            22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
            4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

            Gore? You want gore?

            4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
            4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
            4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

            spreading religion through violence, using religion to gain territory, what sick sort of people do such horrid and inhumane things?
            23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
            23:30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
            23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
            23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. (23:32-33)
            “Thou shalt make no covenant with them nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in thy land.”
            Stay away from those that believe differently than you. Do not make treaties with them or allow them to live in your land.
            23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

            Those last verses tell me that you Christians are not concerned about Islam as much as you are concerned with making your own religious fairy tales come true.

            Parse away, just like you refuse to do with the Quran

            • You didn’t provide anything, Greg — except evidence of your scriptural ignorance.

              You have cited these passages out of context and without the verses that follow that explain why they happened and what they mean. Often times, they are examples of what we should NOT do.

              On the other hand, you cannot say the same about the Qur’an — and that is why I included the Hadith. they show that the quotes I provided ARE as they seem by showing that Muhammad and his earliest followers behaved accordingly.

              Greg,

              You missed the primary and most crucial difference between what you cited from the Bible and what I cited from the Qur’an: the Bible says it is GOD doing most of those things (or directing them), and the Qur’an says it is Muhammad and his followers doing it FOR Allah. If you had faith, you would understand that Satan needs man to do a good deal of his work, but God does his own. On the surface, it looks to be the same thing, but it isn’t.

              You are among those who will be condemned if you do not change your ways. I actually pray for you — and I mean it when I ask the Lord to soften your heart to Him. Admittedly, I am far from the voice you need to hear, but I have tried to explain your ignorance to you. Every time, you have defended the enemies of God. This is the essence of original sin: you place your own will and judgment over His. I sincerely wish there was a way to reach you, but, sadly, that isn’t for me to do… 😦

              • “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
                The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
                And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
                19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
                19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
                19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
                19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
                22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
                4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
                4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
                4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
                4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
                23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
                23:30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
                23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
                23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. (23:32-33)
                “Thou shalt make no covenant with them nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in thy land.”
                Stay away from those that believe differently than you. Do not make treaties with them or allow them to live in your land.
                23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

                • It’s all good. Your side — as far as HUMANS go — still has more blood on its hands than Christianity AND Islam — COMBINED!

                  Let’s face it: when you do not hold yourself accountable to God, then there are no limits to what you feel justified in doing to individual hunks of protoplasm.

                  • Let’s face it, you have no earthly idea what goes on in my head, and how I react to the slaughter of humans of any stripe. Unlike you xtians, I don’t need a bogeyman in the closet in order to keep my baser intentions in check. Goodness for its own sake, it makes me feel good. Somehow, I doubt that any God who slaughters women, babies and cattle would understand. Nor would his followers, I fear

                    • Define “good,” Greg. You can’t — not without God. All you can define is your own idea of good.

                      As for the notion that God must be evil if he kills people, that is a fallacious statement. If I make you and I tell you do this, but do not do that or I will get rid of you and start over, then you do what you are not supposed to do, I am not evil if I keep my word…unless you are telling me parents who discipline their children are evil for doing so.

                    • You define good by using a creature who kills children for laughing at a bald guy. You may as well study entrails as try to gain wisdon from the Bible.

                    • LOL, first of all, the original Hebrew says “youth,” not children. Youth, in the Hebrew culture, can mean anyone up to about age 25. Second, sure, why not. If they are mocking God’s servant, they mock God. God made them, God can do as He wishes with them.

                      As for finding wisdom in the Bible, if you cannot find the wisdom in it, it is probably because the extent of your reading it amounts to your atheist “quote the Bible” sites.

                      At least with me, I took time to read the Qur’an and then the Sirah and a good deal of the Hadith before I decided Islam is what I say. It would be much more honest of you were you to bother to do the same with EITHER religion.

                  • And what is this garbage about one side having more violence than the other, so it is a worse religion? B, we are not playing football here, and your viewpoint has no spiritual aspect whatsoever.

                    • Greg,

                      The Bible does NOT teach its followers to kill for the sake of spreading belief in Yahweh. The Qur’an DOES teach Muslims to either subjugate or kill for the sake of spreading Islam.

                      And atheists think it is OK to kill for the sake of government which, invariably, can always be traced to the person ego of the particular atheist espousing their personal ideas over all of mankind.

                      You cannot see any of this, so I do not place a great deal of credence in your words telling me what i do not understand…especially when you are mistaken.

        • “I despair of ever having a grown-up conversation in this room.”

          Yeah no shit Greg. Look in the mirror often? Allow me to let you in on a little tid-bit most grown ups have come to understand….

          You get back, what you give.

          • I went to school with a niece of the Shah. She told me that she was Christian and that other religions are protected in Iran. I don’t know if that is changing, but I would hazard a guess that the student protests were due to the losses of freedoms brought on by radical Muslims.

            Oh, and I’m not an infidel.

            • “I went to school with a niece of the Shah.”

              Fantastic for you.

              “She told me that she was Christian and that other religions are protected in Iran.”

              She lied (see below).

              “I don’t know if that is changing”

              Nothing to change. See this document from the State Department.

              “The constitution and other laws and policies do not protect religious freedom and in practice, the government severely restricted religious freedom.”

              Click to access 193095.pdf

              “but I would hazard a guess that the student protests were due to the losses of freedoms brought on by radical Muslims.”

              Different topic, but I will expand. They want to wear blue jeans and listen to Madonna. But funny how smoothly radical and Islam rolls off the tongue, and finger tips. Well done.

              “Oh, and I’m not an infidel.”

              Oh, so you have converted now? Well done, I suppose.

              • Your link brought me to a document from 2011. My girlfriend fled Iran in 1979, thus my comment, “I don’t know if that is changing.”

                Infidelis; Latin: Unbelieving.
                No, I’m a believer, thus my comment, “Oh, and I’m not an infidel.”

                Also, I do believe that there are radical Muslims. But for me to lump all Muslims together, would be akin to me saying that B. is a nut-case because he subscribes to a nutty-assed religion; therefore, he must be just like those Westboro Baptist Church fruitloops. He may argue all he pleases, but the evidence is conclusive. Are you with me so far?

                • Also, I do believe that there are radical Muslims. But for me to lump all Muslims together, would be akin to me saying that B. is a nut-case because he subscribes to a nutty-assed religion; therefore, he must be just like those Westboro Baptist Church fruitloops. He may argue all he pleases, but the evidence is conclusive. Are you with me so far?

                  You are NOT using the Muslim definition of infidel, Kells — unless you say you believe in Allah (or Ar-Rhaman, the 2nd god listed in the Qur’an). If you believe in either of them, then you can’t be a Christian — except in the Obamian sense.

                  I do not lump all Muslims together. I have told you this many times. You simply have plugs in your ears. HOWEVER, if you are a pious Muslim, then you are not radical, you follow all the teachings I have attacked. The Muslims YOU call “moderate” are actually hypocrites and apostates according to the Qur’an and pious Muslims, which makes THEM the “radicals.” You really need to start using the Qur’an to define things rather than your own desires.

                  As for Westboro, they are like your Muslim friends apparently must be: HERETICS! They do not follow the teachings of their religion faithfully.

                • I just gave you the root of the word. And the definition is unfaithful; unbelieving. Why would I give a fat rat’s tiddely-boomp how a Muslim or a Christian defines the word? In the dictionary infidel is defined as a person who does not believe in a particular religion. Your silly definition comes afterwards; which tells me that people took the definition of the root of the word and misconstrued it for their own purpose.

                  Okay. So I guess the Muslims I like are moderate radicals? That’s a bit of an oxymoron, don’t ya think?

                  I agree that the Westboro fruitloops are as nutty as Jim Jones, David Koresh, and radical Muslims.

                • “Your link brought me to a document from 2011. My girlfriend fled Iran in 1979, thus my comment, “I don’t know if that is changing.””

                  Mohamed did not apply a statue of limitations on Islam.

                  “Infidelis; Latin: Unbelieving.
                  No, I’m a believer, thus my comment, “Oh, and I’m not an infidel.””

                  Nice platitude of using the root of a word. Now let’s quantify that root word as it relates to Islam. In Islam, “unbelieving” means the unbelieving of Islam. Are you trying to tell us you are a believer in Islam?

                  “Also, I do believe that there are radical Muslims. But for me to lump all Muslims together, would be akin to me saying that B. is a nut-case because he subscribes to a nutty-assed religion; therefore, he must be just like those Westboro Baptist Church fruitloops. He may argue all he pleases, but the evidence is conclusive. Are you with me so far?”

                  Apples and oranges to an otherwise flippant comment. However, when a religion is so prolifically linked to radicalism, and that very radicalism is so well documented as being justified in the bible that religion is based upon, then yes … you can group by that very document.

                  “I agree that the Westboro fruitloops are as nutty as Jim Jones, David Koresh”

                  Now this is interesting. You can only name two radical Christians. For some reason I would suppose you can only name one radical Muslim?

                • “I like infidels.”

                  Me too! Especially those with lady parts. I try to sleep with at least one different one each week. 🙂

                • Me too! Especially those with lady parts. I try to sleep with at least one different one each week.

                  You must have a platinum playa card then. I’m just reaching gold status.

                • @ William – I do aight. 😀

                  @ Kells – religion doesn’t have a damn thing to do with it (except for those nutty Muslim rituals before). Fun to watch … once.

                • We have 3 friends from Iran.
                  They fled their homeland because the Muslims outlawed religious freedom. Hell they outlawed freedom, unless you are a Muslim, and do as the Ayatollah commands…… OOPS, that isn’t freedom either, is it?

            • Oh, and I’m not an infidel.

              From Islam’s perspective: If you are not an infidel, then you must be a Muslim. From Christ’s perspective, if you are a Christian, you MUST be an infidel. This is according to the Bible and Qur’an (they are NOT the same religion, nor the same god). You may want to think about that for a bit before you claim NOT to be an infidel again.

              • Precisely.

                What Kells is subscribing too is the old argument by local Muslims that an infidel is someone who believes Israel belongs to the Jews. However, that platitude is not found in the Qur’an, yet she believes it because …

                All Muslims are benevolent. Yeah.

                  • Of course Tex, but let’s pull a liberal tactic here, and re-work the unworkable, to soften it … make it more acceptable.

                    The Muslims are not lying, they are just providing misinformation so that you will not profile them, or speak against them in a bully-ish manner.

                    You damn racist! 🙂

  2. Well, well, well. I go to rehearsals, and you silly boys act like a bunch of school girls! Hello! Did you not think I wouldn’t read this?! I’ve now lost my temper and shall go down the list!

    @augger: My sweet little devil’s food cake; I’m not the one that translated infidel into a religious word; that would be you and B.
    @wills: I’m still a little miffed that you auctioned off my bikini. I really hope it was for breast cancer or some other good cause.
    @B.: I’ve bought a fresh roll of duct tape. Guess what I shall do with it.
    @Texas: My girlfriend is not a liar. We sang in the same church together. Oh, wait! A conspiracy is afoot! Gimme a break!

    Thank you all for causing me to grind my teeth!!

    • Kells,

      You don’t get it. I know because my computer and I are sitting at the same desk together.

      Oh, almost forgot. If you try to duct tape Utah’s cheeks together again, he may take away your playing privileges.

    • “Well, well, well. I go to rehearsals, and you silly boys act like a bunch of school girls! Hello! Did you not think I wouldn’t read this?! I’ve now lost my temper and shall go down the list!”

      I rather hoped you would, and respond, which you did. Rest assured, I won’t be losing any sleep over it.

      “@augger: My sweet little devil’s food cake; I’m not the one that translated infidel into a religious word; that would be you and B.”

      No, that would not be myself, or B. That would be the Qur’an. We just read it.

      “@wills: I’m still a little miffed that you auctioned off my bikini. I really hope it was for breast cancer or some other good cause.”

      Maybe it doesn’t fit him right?

      “@B.: I’ve bought a fresh roll of duct tape. Guess what I shall do with it.”

      Well obvious answer would be to use it to make a splint and mouth piece as prophylactic measure to ward off TMJ symptoms from your teeth grinding.

      “@Texas: My girlfriend is not a liar. We sang in the same church together. Oh, wait! A conspiracy is afoot! Gimme a break!”

      Like no Christian or Muslim has ever lied … wait. What was I thinking? McPherson, Obama, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have lied before, right?

      “Thank you all for causing me to grind my teeth!!”

      You are most welcomed, my dear.

    • “@wills: I’m still a little miffed that you auctioned off my bikini. I really hope it was for breast cancer or some other good cause”

      Yes. Your top was the one that completed the bras across the bay. They should be contacting you soon about your prize.

      • It would make a good one, kells. Why the US feels guilt that the ruins of the ancient city were damaged (reportedly by the US) during the Desert Storm wars, and the relevance to Saddam and Nebuchadnezzer, and how the Book of Revelations (Chapters 16, 17, 18) relate to the anti-Christ.

    • Yes, I have. Are you aware that Iran is building massive highways to it? And that “I’mawackojob” has said the 12th Imam will soon return and go to New Babylon?

      Coincidentally, New Babylon is mentioned in prophecy as well 😉

      • Yes. The plan is to rebuild the ancient city as a “theme park” type attraction. Unfortunately, according to some interpretations in Revelations, it will be the power seat of the anti-Christ and from there will become a “multicultural center” leading to the downfall of Christianity. A joint effort by (US) Christians and (Iraqi) Muslims? Can’t see it from where I’m sitting.

    • “black (or others) – Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the joint UN/US efforts to rebuild the ancient city of Babylon? Have you been following this story?”

      Time for the US to leave the UN. Hell, we can’t pay our own bills. Why pay theirs?

  3. Revelations 17: 1-5 and 15-18. NIV – – – Of course, if you read all of Chapter 17 you will see that Babylon is referred to as “The Mother of Prostitutes”.

    “17 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
    3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
    babylon the great
    the mother of prostitutes
    and of the abominations of the earth

    “15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

  4. Yes, and this could also refer to a nation rather than a city. It is “possible” (one of many interpretations, mind you) that the lady is the U.S. and the beast will be the Caliphate. We have to remember that heads and horns are symbolic terms in the Hebrew culture. I believe they refer to nations and leaders, but I’ve never quite gotten it straight.

Talk Amongst Yourselves:

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.