Islam: In Muhammad’s Words

“I am the prophet that laughs when killing my enemies.” 

–Hadith

RNL reader, Melfamy, made this comment to me today about my position on Islam:

melfamy Jul 7, 12:19 pm

Joe, you defend a liar, you publish lies and disotrted facts! One day, you are going to look into your mirror and see yourself for the jingoistic, angry fear-monger that you are.

I have tired of this man, Melfamy, and those apologists who side with him.  They are willfully ignorant and foolish people who refuse to learn or acknowledge objective reality — the truth! And I am tired of listeing to them tell others I do not know what I am saying.   I do not hold a distorted view of Islam – I hold the view of Islam as Muhammad defined it!  Men like Melfamy prefer to refer to themselves, or to those who have changed Islam over the years from what Muhammad said it is.  But this shouldn’t surprise us.  Essentially, it is just another variant of original sin: man’s arrogance asserting his view of how things are or should be over tat of how they really are.

Just as I refer to the founders when I want to know what they believed, or how to understand what the Constitution was intended to mean and work, I have referred to the Qur’an and Muhammad for my understanding of what Islam is all about.  After all, there is no greater authority on an idea than that of the person or persons who developed it.  So, in that vane, I give you Muhammad’s words as to what he and Islam are all about, but first, let’s set a few things straight:

The word “Islam” has been falsely proclaimed by Muslims to mean peace. The word Islam, actually means “submission” to the Muslim god of intolerance and hatred. It comes from the root Arabic word “taslim”. In Arabic, the word for peace is only “solh”.

There are more than 100 verses in the Qur’an (Koran) advocating the use of violence to spread Islam.  There are exactly 123 verses in the Qur’an about killing and fighting.

Next, understand that Muhammad’s word is law under Islam – period!

Qur’an 4:65 “They can have no Faith, until they make you (Muhammad) judge in all disputes, and find in their souls no resistance against Your decisions, accepting them with complete submission.”
Qur’an 33:21 “You have indeed a noble paradigm in the Apostle of Allah.” [A second translation reads:] “You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone to follow.” [A third reads:] “Verily in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example for him who looks unto Allah and the Last Day.” [A fourth reads:] “Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent prototype.” [A fifth says:] “You have indeed a noble paradigm [archetype, exemplar, standard, model, or pattern] to follow in Allah’s Apostle.”
Qur’an 33:36 “No Muslim has any choice after Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter.”
Qur’an 33:57 “Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed.”
Qur’an 4:80 “He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah.”

 So what does Muhammad say about jihad, war and killing?

Qur’an:2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”
Qur’an:33:22 “Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an:8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.'”
Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

 And how does Muhammad say Muslims are to do this?  With TERROR!

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an:8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Qur’an:8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”
Qur’an:7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”

 Now, understand this: I chose just a few verses from the Qur’an ONLY!  There are many more similar verses in the Qur’an, and much more in the Hadith.  The Hadith is the “sayings and customs of Muhammad.”  This is considered part of Islam as, without it, the Qur’an does NOT define a religion that can actually be practiced.  It is too disjointed, incomprehensible and contradictory.  Unless Muslims look to Muhammad’s example – AS MUHAMMAD COMMANDED – they cannot make a religion from the Qur’an.  But one Muslims look to Muhammad’s example, they will find only war and terrorism.

Now, about those such as Melfamy who refuse to accept this.  He can call me all the names he wants, but his quarrel is NOT with me.  It is with Muhammad.  If he does not like what this means for his Muslim friends, then he should do as I try to do: EDUCATE THEM ON THE TRUTH OF ISLAM!  Many Muslims who go to good schools tend to fall away from Islam, or try to make a different, “peaceful” religion from Muhammad’s rantings.  You need to understand that these are mostly good people, but – ACCORDING TO MUHAMMAD – they are not Muslims.  Muhammad called the apostates and commanded their execution by faithful Muslims.

Qur’an 5:4 “This day those who reject faith give up all hope of your religion. Yet fear them not, fear Me. This day I have perfected your religion and have chosen for you Submission as your religion.”
Qur’an 33:36 “It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them by Allah and His Messenger. They have no option. If any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a wrong Path.”
Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”
Qur’an 4:114 “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”
Qur’an 58:46 “Obey Allah and His Messenger; and do not dispute!”
Qur’an 4:59 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority. If you dispute any matter, refer it to Allah and His Messenger. That is best, and most suitable for final determination.”
Qur’an 4:115 “If anyone contradicts or opposes the Messenger [not Allah] after guidance has been conveyed to him, and follows a path other than the way, We shall burn him in Hell!”

132 thoughts on “Islam: In Muhammad’s Words

  1. Here is the Record of yet another young English person….17 years old Knfed to death by a litreally “Laughing Muslim POS.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/07/sudden-jihad-syndrome-uk-college-student-knifed-to-death-in-street-by-giggling-muslim/

    This would be the SECOND such event in England …. the other being the Soldier recently decapitated in broad day-light.

    Melfamy is part of the muslim effort to bring down America from within….using our Laws and Liberties against us. In virtually every post he excuses or advocates violence against westerners and especially Americans ………….. Pretty good for a person living off of our Tax dollars…..He is the Entitlement Jihadist……Literally.

    • “Pretty good for a person living off of our Tax dollars”

      A typically moronic statement, Donnie, considering that Greg has answered this point previously. But then, reading comprehension has never been your strong suit, has it?

    • Melfamy (Greg) is a tug boat (or push boat) captain moving barges down the Mississippi and the Gulf of Mexico. I don’t think he’s living off anyone’s tax dollars, certainly not entitlements.

      • Thank at least 3 of you for making McPherson’s point. I post a true, factual statement – known to be true by the majority of us; Utah, Joe, Kells, Augger, Dusty, etc., and 3 of you thumbs down it. Just stupid.

        • i typically do not pay attention to the post popularity vote, and I suggest you don’t bother to as well.

          As far as Melfamy, I concur. I do not believe he’s a practicing member of the Free Shit Army, but I also believe he’s bitter that he is not, and that’s the source of my laughter from his earlier post this morning. When I read it, I thought back to all of his hyperventilating about losing free healthcare in the 80s along with the rest of his socialist desires, and then I saw where he stated he made $500 dollars per day when he worked. I thought to myself; “I wouldn’t bother getting out of bed if I were to make $500 for that day.” I feel your pain Greg, for $500 bucks, I would rather collect an Obamaphone too. 🙂

          As to his Atheism vs his love for Islam. Either he is the most hypocritical atheist, or the most chicken-shit, or maybe he’s not really an atheist at all … but in fact a closet Muslim … who knows? Who really cares. What I find about Melfamy concerning religion is that he is a blatant hypocrite who if nothing else … absolutely abhors Christianity. Can anyone ever remember him saying one positive thing about Christianity? I cannot. Understanding that his wife is a Christian, it makes me weep for her.

          • I didn’t defend Melfamy’s position, he doesn’t need me to do that. My point is that DonAmeche’s post is simply false, or a lie, if you will. No point in it, yet three people found reason to support it.

            ” Pretty good for a person living off of our Tax dollars…..He is the Entitlement Jihadist……Literally.”

            • I agree, FC. I also think there are very few people, especially if they worked in Panama City, that wouldn’t get out of bed for $180K/yr.

            • “I didn’t defend Melfamy’s position, he doesn’t need me to do that.”
              – Did I ever say you did?

              “My point is that DonAmeche’s post is simply false”
              -Guess you missed this; “As far as Melfamy, I concur.” — I could not have been any clearer than that.

              Sadly, you led poor ole Gates right out of the ballpark, and I honestly do not have any idea how to pull him back to the point.

              • I’m in the park. The problem is that you’re at Cellular Field and I’m at Wrigley.

                “I wouldn’t bother getting out of bed if I were to make $500 for that day.”

                Trust me I can find my own way to the place I need to be.

                • “I wouldn’t bother getting out of bed if I were to make $500 for that day.”

                  So my statement bothers you … get over it. 🙂

              • Nope, didn’t miss any of your post. If you had stopped at “I concur”, that would have been all that was necessary, but you had to go on and add all of the other about Melfamy’s comment. That’s why I said I didn’t (don’t) support Melfamy’s position. I don’t lead anyone anywhere. We’re all adults here (though some refuse to act like it) and go our own ways.

                • Well next time I will make an attempt to be certain to placate your sensitivities. Unfortunately, this topic direction sort of leads back to pages upon pages of vitriol I have had to endure reading from Melfamy’s fingers. I’ve had to explain my charity, etc., etc, etc at his castigation of my position in life, that I carved out for myself.

                  Now if that bothers you, I am sure Gates and McPherson have room for you on their bench.

                  • The vitriol you have had to endure from Melfamy’s fingers nor your charitable contributions nor the life you’ve carved out for yourself have anything to do with DonAmeche’s lie.

                    • “The vitriol you have had to endure from Melfamy’s fingers nor your charitable contributions nor the life you’ve carved out for yourself have anything to do with DonAmeche’s lie.”

                      Actually, it doesn’t … until you realize that everything Don stated was not a mistruth. Don offered; “He is the Entitlement Jihadist”, and Meflamy has in fact on numerous occasions argued for expanded entitlements using bullying tactics and vitriol, and that leads credence to Don’s assertions. You going to deny that as well?

                    • Sorry Augger , I meant to write “doesn’t”, my fault, but don’t parse DonAmeche’s statement to suit your point. He said, “Pretty good for a person living off of our Tax dollars …He is the Entitlement Jihadist……Literally.”

                  • I’m only down with myself. Got that from my grandfather. He said, “Son, there’s only one person in life that you can depend on, and that’s yourself. ‘Cause I won’t always be here.”

                    There’s no one on the bench with me. If me and others have ideals and principles we agree with, fine. If not, that’s fine too. I don’t have to pretend to agree with everything a “side” says I should to belong. That would be indoctrination now wouldn’t it? I did that when I went over my freshmen year.

                    • “Son, there’s only one person in life that you can depend on, and that’s yourself. ‘Cause I won’t always be here.”

                      What an awesome grandfather. Well done Gates, well done. 🙂

          • So, Augger, folks shouldn’t bother to work for just $500 per day? I wonder what your teachers made, or why they bothered to get out of bed. How about the nurses you work with? Your kids, if you have any? The soldiers in the military, or the cops or firefighters that you might call upon to save your butt? How about your buddy Joe, for that matter? Or Kells and her family?

            But we’re really impressed with what you make as a doc. It clearly makes you better than the rest of us. Actually, the fact that you mention it so often merely makes you seem pitiful, as if the rest of your life must be seriously lacking something. At least you can afford good whiskey to try to fill the hole, I guess.

            • James, the point is everyone settles for what they are willing to live with. Just because I set a higher bar for myself does not give you the moral high-ground to get your ass chapped over my choice. Sadly, I don’t think you followed the point to it’s fruition. And I will add:

              I think all of these atheists should surrender their U.S currency, on which stated “In God We Trust” and “Annuit Coeptis” which is supposed to mean: “God has favored our undertaking.”

              Pitiful you think? You you know where to find it. Check your mirror.

              • “does not give you the moral high-ground to get your ass chapped over my choice”

                That’s true — but it sounded like you were doing that with those who made less. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

                “I think all of these atheists should surrender their U.S currency”

                That’s a bit silly, it seems to me. They didn’t choose to put the words on it. Should I forfeit mine because I don’t care for silly pyramids with giant eyeballs?

                • Apology accepted. I will admit I get my ass chapped when those who choose to piss away their opportunities, then turn around and chastise me for exploiting my opportunities to the fullest.

                  It wasn’t a bit silly, it was incredibly silly … and that was the point. 🙂

          • Augger,

            Seeing how the author of Islam is served equally by his followers and atheists, it only makes sense that the two would naturally align against the Light.

            • Thanks Joe for a response on to the point. I was hoping someone would mention that. Funny the conundrum created by sleeping with the enemy. That same founder also wrote that they should slay the non-believers. Would not an atheist qualify as a non-believer in Islam?

              Hypocrisy. Love it, live it. (stares at Melfamy)

              • Augger,

                Well, I’ve started counting those posts that immediately run off topic as an admission that the poster has no counter to my post/point. I also see it as a sign that those same people have little interest in dealing with issues. And that doesn’t give me much hope for our future — especially when we consider the topic that is SUPPOSED to be at hand.

          • Augger, I take into account the fact that you and the other fools in here lack a memory. I have said many times that the reason we have so many Muslims over here is to escape the madness. Just because I don’t harp on it doesn’t mean I don’t think Islam is wonderful, I don’t. I do, however, think that it has certain advantages over the other religion that exhorts its adherents to violence xtianity, (weighing good acts against bad, banking laws are stronger, etc.) and I think that xtians are , while not quite as bloodthirsty as muslims, still have some ‘splainin’ to do.
            Augger, I was basically waiting to be drafted for 33 years. I admit that I didn’t have much to worry about, what with Congress lacking the balls to declare war and take responsibility for engaging in hostilities. Had war been declared, I would have been in the service,. I made 105 bucks a day back then. My medical care was a benefit, yes, but it was contingent on my willingness to serve, and it wasn’t trimmed, or co-payments added, it was dropped, one day we had it, the next day poof!

            If our national military offensiveness was directed at countries where women are abused, and our goal was mindset-change, not regime change, I could support global intervention by American troops. What are the chances of that happening? However, if we just trade with the bastards, if we stop coddling Israel and make them bargain in good faith, fewer Americans would be dying over a sliver of land. The mind set change comes from them interacting with us. Our best Muslim trading partners all have universal sufferage; that comes from seeing how prosperous and dynamic a free citizenry can lift a country out of economic malaise.

            • Melfamy, I take in to account the fact that you foolishly lack memory. We’ve all ceded many times that the reason we have so many Muslims over here is to escape the madness. Each of us has also offered that we personally know one, or more Muslims in our community, and in my case specifically have worked with them on charitable, and other community events. Pontificating about the given is not giving you any high-ground here.

              If you do not think that Islam is not capable of exhorting it’s adherents to violence, then you really fit the picture painted of you by Joe who basically asserts that you are an apologetic Muslim sympathizer. Given that, you might want to take a second look at the violence in the name of Islam, and then follow that violence back to it’s protagonists. Understanding that your memory fails you, I will reiterate that all three of the “Great Religions” have had their fair share of radicals who’ve bastardized the religion and inspired others to commit acts of terrorism … another “given’, that most of us folks who process sapient thought already understand.

              Additionally, if you honestly think that the whole of the violence with Islam singularly surrounds Palestine, then you are woefully misinformed. That is a simpleton’s approach to the problem with Islamic terrorism, as the problem with Islamic violence pre-dates the state of Israel. But this leads to the real problem with US involvement in Middle Eastern affairs … no one is asking what these various sects of Muslims are angry about. I’ll even admit that I have listened to so many differing Muslims opinions that I cannot sort it out. I just know it’s not all about Israel. We’ll have to discuss the other various long-standing Islamic traditions that promote violence within Islam towards it’s own adherents at a future debate. For the sake of this post, let’s just agree that they are easily capable of violence amongst their own, and it’s well documented.

              Again Melfamy, it’s not that you are ignorant. You’re not dumb. You just approach the topic with such a colossal myopic lens that you appear stupid. Personally, I believe you are beyond that. I think you just dig your heels in the sand in opposition.

              You might want to look at that.

        • FL, we all know G., and as you say, would not vote to discredit your comment because we know it is the truth. I don’t think people realize how far we all go back……… We’re like a flippin Seinfeld episode! Now I’m getting the giggles, because I believe G. has been cast as Newman. I think I’m probably viewed as the close talker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGVSIkEi3mM

  2. These are from the Hadith (the recordings of Muhammad’s sayings and customs and early history of Islam by Muhammad and his disciples/followers). They are taken from the three most reliable and accepted Hadith authors — accepted by Muslim clerics since the time the Hadith were compiled. They are as “authorative” as it gets in Islam:

    Bukhari:V4B52N267
    “The Prophet said, ‘Khosrau will be ruined. There won’t be a Persian King after him. Caesar will be ruined. There will be no Caesar after him. You will spend their treasures in Allah’s Cause.’ He proclaimed, ‘War is deceit.'”

    Bukhari:V4B53N386
    “Umar sent Muslims to great countries to fight pagans. He said, ‘I intend to invade Persia and Rome.’ So, he ordered us to go to [the Persian King] Khosrau. When we reached the enemy, Khosrau’s representative came out with 40,000 warriors, saying, ‘Talk to me! Who are you?’ Mughira replied, ‘We are Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life. We used to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.‘”

    This Hadith is important, as it dates to a time just after Muhammad’s death and clearly illustrates that early Islam does not match the modern propaganda about Islam and the supposed religion of peace. It also shows that the perversion of the faith does not lie with those who wage war on non-Muslims, but with those who try to make a peaceful religion from the one Muhammad defined.

    Muslim:C29B20N4636
    “The Messenger of Allah was asked: ‘What deed could be equivalent to Jihad in the Cause of Allah? He answered: ‘You do not have the strength to do that deed.’ The question was repeated twice or thrice. Every time he answered: ‘You do not have the strength to do it.’ When the question was asked for the third time, he said: ‘One who goes out for Jihad is like a person who keeps fasts and stands in prayer forever, never exhibiting any weariness until the Mujihid returns from Jihad.'”

    Muslim:C29B20N4638
    “As I was (sitting) near the pulpit of the Messenger a man said: ‘I do not care if, after embracing Islam, I do not do any good deed (except) distributing drinking water to pilgrims.’ Another said: ‘I do not care if I do not do any good deed beyond maintenance service to the Sacred Mosque.’ Yet another said: ‘Jihad in the Way of Allah is better than what you have said.’ When prayer was over, I entered (the apartment of the Prophet) and asked his verdict about the matter. It was upon this that Allah, the Almighty and Exalted, revealed the Qur’anic Verse: ‘Do you make the giving of drinking water to the pilgrims and the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque equal to (the service of those) who believe in Allah and strive hard and fight Jihad in His Cause. They are not equal. Those who believed and fought Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and their lives are far higher in degree with Allah.'”

    Muslim:C32B20N4646
    “Muhammad stood up among his Companions to deliver his sermon in which he told them that Jihad in Allah’s Cause and belief in Allah were the most meritorious of acts. A man stood and said: ‘Messenger, do you think that if I am killed in the Way of Allah, my sins will be blotted out?’ The Messenger said: ‘Yes, in case you are killed in Allah’s Cause and you always fought facing the enemy, never turning your back upon him.’ The man asked (again).’ The Messenger said: ‘Yes, if you always fought facing the enemy and never retreated. Gabriel has told me this.'”

    • Amazingly Pathetic.

      Your first quote from Hadith ” I am the profit that laughs when killing my enemies” and a Real life recent example is given and noone even mentions this poor kid’s name.

      What a sad collection of amoral self-absorbed people this country is filled with ……. Liberals, conservatives and “independents “.

      • Don,

        You and I know full what what we are dealing with here: not people, but spirits and principalities. People are just choosing sides, and the majority chose wrong. That is why the gate at the end of the straight path is so narrow.

        • Did you even read the Link ??

          The one about the laughing muslim who pushed a knife repeatedly into the teens chest …. just as the muslim directive Joe high-lighted intructed him to do ?

          What’s Sad is the utter indifference to murder ….. and especially to murder done in the name of allah …. indifference by supposed “enightened” Liberals and Independents.

          • Don,

            they can’t read the evidence, and if they do, they cannot EVER acknowledge the truth of which it testifies. If they do, then they have to acknowledge we have been correct all this time, and that means having to admit they have been wrong, and THAT is the one thing they cannot do without self-implosion: admit they are wrong.

            Think about it. When was the last time you ever heard a liberal sincerely admit he/she was wrong and then follow it up with a change in attitude and behavior?

            • Very very raely in Fact.

              What is pathetic is that those who call themselves “Independants” and “Libertarians” act in the same manor …. which just make me question who and what they really are.

    • Religion is football, Joe, it is all about world domination. Tell me that no general has ever invoked killing the enemy in the name of a loving xtian god just before a big battle. The slaughter in Rwanda was committed by Christians. The endtimes, as depicted in the Bible, are not the stuff of an after-school special.

      My wife is a patient, long-suffering Christian woman. Most of my friends are xtian , they are great people, as are most believers, although it is amusing how many have quietly confessed their doubts about the existence of God to me; they don’t dare confess to their spouses or pastors.

      • That’s a pretty wide casted net Melfamy. If you want to catch mullet, you are going to need smaller mesh. 🙂

        I am saddened to hear about your wife’s “long-suffering” however.

  3. Islam bashing isn’t going to stop the workers from realizing their class interest is not served by capitalism.

  4. Karl,

    What in the blazes are you talking about. How is your comment even rellavent to this conversation.

    Just riddle me this, would you rather live under Islam or Christianity. Don’t tell me neither just a simple answer please.

    • “just a simple answer please”

      Forgive me for interrupting, chhelo, and I’m not taking Karl’s side here, but your question doesn’t seem to be all that “simple.”

      For one thing, capitalism and Christianity aren’t the same thing, so I’m not clear why you’re countering his (perhaps irrelevant) economic statement with a faith-related question. And many of us who happen to be Christians would rather not live “under” ANY theocracy — we want the freedom to worship (or not) how we choose.

      • James,

        If you are a Christian and you would rather not live under the message of Christ’s Gospel — which is VERY theocratic in origin, with Christ being the Law-giver, Judge and King — then I have no idea what religion you really are, but I know you are as much Christian as the person who rejects Muhammad’s commands is a Muslim.

        • Joe, there’s a difference between how I choose to live as an individual and how I think the nation should be run. I choose to live as a Christian, in a nation where people are free to choose. It sounded to me as if Chhelo was giving Greg (an atheist, I believe) a choice between a Muslim theocracy and a Christian theocracy. And neither I nor my Jewish friends want this country to be either one.

          • James,

            Apparently, you do not know or understand Christ’s Gospel very well. He deals with this issue. Go find the Gospels about shaking the dust from your feet and study them closer.

            • “Apparently, you do not know or understand Christ’s Gospel very well.”

              Some would argue that to be true of all of us — and the fact is, though you’re welcome to a theocratic view, that view has been rejected by most American Christians (including even Southern Baptists before the 1960s). Besides, I have a pastor and work at a Christian university that’s full of them (including two of the six guys in my department) and so there’s no need for you to try to fill that role. Thanks, though, for caring.

              I might ask, though — since so few people heed your words, when are you leaving? We’ll miss you. 🙂

      • James, the interesting thing about this is that the post is religious in nature. However, it was Karl that rolled up in here to pontificate his disdain for Capitalism. Maybe we should begin untangling this mess with asking him why?

  5. OK, apparently, we need to re-focus. The topic is the original Islamic doctrine as defined by Muhammad and understood by his earliest followers — and as explained by Muhammad and his earliest followers. So, once again, from the 3 most trusted Hadith:

    Ishaq:208
    “When Allah gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of submission. Now we bound themselves to war against all mankind for Allah and His Apostle. He promised us a reward in Paradise for faithful service. We pledged ourselves to war in complete obedience to Muhammad no matter how evil the circumstances.

    Qur’an:8:7
    “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.‘”

    Ishaq:583
    “Since you have made Khalid chief of the army and promoted him, he has become a chief indeed, leading an army guided by Allah. Firmly clad in mail, warriors with lances leveled, we are a strong force not unlike a rushing torrent. We smite the wicked while we swear an oath to Muhammad…fighting in the quest of booty.

    Muslim:C34B20N4669
    “The Prophet said: ‘He who equips a warrior in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights and he who looks after the family of a warrior in the Allah’s Cause in fact participated in the battle.'”

    Muslim:C42B20N4684
    “A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: ‘Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?’ The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.’

    Muslim:C9B1N33
    The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'”

    Muslim:C9B1N29
    “Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: ‘I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.’ Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat.”

    • “Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” Chapter 7, Verse 199
      “Say ye: ‘We believe in God and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them, and we bow to God.’ ” Chapter 2, Verse 136

      “And among His signs is this: that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest and peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Certainly, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect.”
      ——— The Qur’an in Ar Rum, Chapter 30, verse 21.

      “The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manners and kindest to his wife.”

      ——— Muhammad cited in Sunnan Abu Dawud.

      They are the losers, those who make the religion hard and tough. They imperil themselves who enforce tough practices of Islam. They destroy themselves, those who are extremes.
      Prophet Muhammad (s) as reported by Ibn Masud in Sahih Muslim.

      Make things easy and convenient and don’t make them harsh and difficult. Give cheer and glad tidings and do not create hatred.
      ——— Prophet Muhammad (s) in Riyadh us-Saleheen, Volume 1:637.

      Joe, it seems to me that you are missing some verses in your polemical state of mind

      • No, Melfamy, once again, you exhibit the lack of memory that Augger has mentioned. However, I know you, and I KNOW you have a memory — which is why I do not extend the same charity as Augger. You are not myopic, you are willfully ignorant. You deny reality. There is no excuse for this.

        Now, as to these verses you cite: THEY NO LONGER APPLY (at least, not to infidels).

        I have explained this to you until the youngest child should get this by now. it is called ABROGATION! The latest verses of the Qur’an erase the oldest.

        This is not “my opinion,” this is MUHAMMAD’S COMMAND! And I have already shown you where Muhammad said death to those apostates who ignore his commands.

        • Joe, the abrogation was done by Muslim scholars AFTER Mohammad’s death. There is a lot of controversy about the abrogation, it is not settled. You only like abrogation because it suits your pack of lies, not because of its veracity.

          • Melfamy,

            Muhammad said that the newest Surahs superseded the oldest. I have posted this for you MANY times. Muhammad also said to follow his example (that of war for the sake of booty and killing his enemies — which were anyone who did NOT convert or submit). You just do not want to accept what Muhammad said. So long as you continue to point to everything in the universe BUT Muhammad’s words, you are talking about something other than the actual doctrine of Islam.

            • The abrogations are separated into 3 groups, Joe varying degrees of superceding. Again, the abrogation was done by others. It is you who are ignoring the words of Mohammad.

              • Now THAT was done after Muhammad died, and THAT makes the people who did that and who follow it apostates — PER MUHAMMAD!

                Like I keep telling you and you keep refusing to acknowledge: MUHAMMAD DEFINED ISLAM, not those who followed.

                And before you bother, YES! Those who perverted Christ’s Gospel message after His resurrection and ascension are no different nor any better than those who perverted MUHAMMAD’S Islam.

                Fortunately, in both cases, we have the corresponding Scriptures to fall back on for the truth of what Christ said and Muhammad said. However, only one of them is consistent throughout its history and was written by those who actually knew Christ or his disciples. the other was written by men 150-200 years after Muhammad had died.

                • I feel sorry for you, Joe, because Muslims are here, they are part of the American landscape now, and you will spend the rest of your life in fear of them, waiting for the call to Muslims to throw off their stethoscopes, pull the scimitar off the wall over the mantle and behead those of us who won’t switch loyalties from one figment to the other.

      • “You may not think that Muslims worship the same God as you, but that is not what they think. Gotta share man, gotta share”

        This is actually a fairly salient point. All of the clerics, Imam’s, priests, preachers I have spoken with all through my years agree that the three “great religions” worship the same “God”. Their ideologies however, differ from that point.

        That is part of the issue surrounding “The Holy Land”, and who “owns” it.

        • Among the monotheistic religions, aside from Joe’s take on it, there can be only one God. Perhaps the responsibilities for divisions now lie with those who claim to authority to speak for God through their interpretations of their respective texts. If this is the problem, it is certainly aggravated by the sheer number who make such a claim.

            • I went back an read my last post again. If I could edit it, I would delete one “to”. I was not talking about those who have spoken to God, but those who, in the present, claim authority to speak for God through their various interpretations of their respective “holy” texts. There are a vast number of religious “leaders”, but only a minute number use their religion to advocate violence against others.

              • Steve,

                I think the reason I have so much trouble with this issue is because people who have an opinion on it seldom bother to refer to what Muhammad actually said. If we go by what HE said, then Islam is in no way, shape or form a “peaceful” religion. You cannot say this about any other major religion. To the best of my knowledge, they all advocate peace (in some form). But, as I have tried and tried to show, Muhammad said that Muslims were to fight the world until there is only Islam. How do so many seem to miss this?

              • Silence is Complicity.

                As the saying goes….”Evil Triumphs when Good men do (say ) nothing”.

                If the vast number of muslims would stand up and Vocally condem the Violence done in their name it would either end or be so obviously marginalized as to localize it as a Fringe movement…..this lack of support for NON-violence locates mohameddan violence in most of the world’s eyes as a Pillar of the religion itself.

                Christians throughout the world condemed the violence in Northern Ireland when it was claimed to be done for some religious purpose.

                  • I wholeheartedly agree that they are Scared.

                    That should be the opperative Idea going forward…..and the first angle of inquiry should be a resounding WHY ? Why are they scared …. of their own People…..their own religious-brethren so to speak.

                    Joe’s Detailed islamic quotes….my own on other threads and other Posters here as well give an articulation of why …. certainly as a start. But the effort is strong to Shut that dialogue down……………….and THAT should also be a clue.

                    • Don,

                      Not just quotes, citations from the Qur’an — and in the proper context. That makes it the official doctrine of Muhammad’s religion as he defined it.

                      No one will find anything in the Bible telling the Jews to convert of kill EVERYONE in the world until their is only Judaism. Same in the New Testament for Christians. And those who say it does are the ones bastardizing the religion. It is the exact opposite with Islam — which is one clue as to what religion we are really dealing with: the negation of the Bible.

              • “There are a vast number of religious “leaders”, but only a minute number use their religion to advocate violence against others.”

                We’ve delved in to this before. I think the number at the time was 246 unique Muslim groups recognized as terrorist by our government. In that thread, I had them listed in alphabetical order with a link from the .gov site in which they came.

                • Yes, I remember that reference, but still a minute number. If only we were no longer a scapegoat and their anger could be redirected. That will take some smart diplomacy and a lot of patience. Sorry, but I don’t think our government is up to the task.

                  • Your point is not lost on me, but greater than 2 million strong, these organizations represent a formidable force.

                    Not very minute at all.

        • Augger,

          You must remember….from their very “holy” books….the mohemeddans God Tells them to Kill……and that allah ( the baalist moon-god) is THE ONLY God……..they DO NOT BELIEVE that the God of Abraham, and The Christians is the same God…….They do not beleive in “Sharing”.

          islam states very clearly that their’s is THE ONLY God and that it is the Duty of true believers to convert or kill those who do not submit to islam.

          THAT is the central tennat and thrust of the religion. Any characterization other-wise is a purposeful misdirection …. it is part of Kitman and Taqqiya…………To a worshipper of mohamedd…..you CANNOT say Yahweh or God or Brahmah is the same as allah ….. to say that is blasfamy ( unless you as a muslim , are engaged in Taqqiyah or Kitman in Jihad),

      • Muslims do NOT worship Yahweh. If they did, they would use His proper name.

        The truth is that Islam is the antithesis of the Judea/Christian religion. they deny the central figure in the Bible (Christ). The do acknowledge Christ (they call Him Isa), but ONLY as a prophet and then, as their messiah, who will come back to kill all Jews and Christians as apostates.

        There is no way they worship the same God. There is plenty of evidence in the Qur’an (more in the Hadith). I have posted it many times. You do not understand because all you know of either religion is what others tell you or you find on a skeptic web site. try actually reading both books. Start with the Bible as Muhammad dd — before he started changing it.

        • You are a plain and obvious fool, Joe. God has many names, Dios in Spanish, Jehovah, Deo, Mulungu, etc. Allah is annther one.

          You knwo, Joe, there is no perfect evil, and if you were to acknowledge that Islam has had an illustrious past in science and learning while xtians were afraid of bathing and knowledge, you might come across as more believable, instead of a redneck whose ignorance is almost beyond belief.

          • The God of Abraham gave us His proper name. yes, He is known by other names, but they are not his proper name. Muhammad claimed a new proper name for Yahweh. This would make Yahweh a liar, which negates Muhammad’s assertion.

            Then there is the actual history of where the name Allah came from. It is derived from a contraction which roughly mean “greatest god.” This is further supported by the fact that Allah Akbar doesn’t really mean god is great, it means Allah is greater. Greater than whom, Melfamy?

            Tracing the history, we also find that Muhammad said he is from the lineage of Ismael. Yahweh said His people would be from Ismael. Muhammad also said all TRUE prophets come from the family of Ismael. this means Muhammad is not a prophet — BY HIS OWN WORDS! This is further enforced by the fact that Muhammad claimed to have been taken over by Satan (Satanic verses incident). No TRUE prophet can be taken over by Satan. Finally, prophets have to prophecy and/or perform miracles. Muhammad said he had done neither. Once again, this precludes Muhammad form being what he claimed to be — BY HIS OWN WORDS!

            The problem here, Melfamy, is as Augger says: you have dug in your heels and refuse to budge. You defer to people who, if they are TRUE believers — are commanded to lie to you. You are an infidel. You can and must be lied to in the furtherance of Islam. If they tell you the truth — as I try to do — then you will resist them and they will have helped their enemies and harmed the jihad. Again, Muhammad said deception of infidels was OK, a duty even. Yet, you trust people who are commanded to lie more than those who actually try to follow the truth — and, in this case, that is a truth supported by the entire recorded history of Islam since the time Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca.

            • You are a liar, Joe, plain and simple. You lie in your posts all the time, and you defend liars like Dusty, You have no right to lecture me until you clean up your own house.
              In fact, you are describing yourself quite often when you think you are referring to Muslims. You hate in yourself what you claim to see in them.

  6. Sorry to go off topic Joe, but I’m curious to know,

    Speaking in Christian terminology, If Christians aren’t prepared to live under a theocracy in this life, what will they be prepared to live under in the next life as according to what Christian theology tells us? Do we think the kingdom of Heaven is a republic itself in which all inhabitants are created equal (including equal to God), and that God is just an elected official temporarily placed there for a couple terms to represent the inhabitants of Heaven? What we should understand about the theocratic values that are clear in scripture in both testaments, under the one and only sovereign God is that He is benevolent, He is just, not one is equal to Him, and he is the ultimate authority. The collective voice of all of the people on Earth that have ever existed up until now, does not outweigh and over rule the sovereignty of God.

    So specifically to address the statement: “many of us who happen to be Christians would rather not live “under” ANY theocracy — we want the freedom to worship (or not) how we choose.”, If you as a Christian, wouldn’t want to live under the theocracy of God as we know Him (as posed in Joe’s statement: “If you are a Christian and you would rather not live under the message of Christ’s Gospel — which is VERY theocratic in origin, with Christ being the Law-giver, Judge and King — then I have no idea what religion you really are, but I know you are as much Christian as the person who rejects Muhammad’s commands is a Muslim”.), then what would you want to live under? How can you claim to be a Christian, and not recognize God (the author of the universe and every single one of the natural laws that governs it) as the ultimate authority above all kingdoms, empires, and/or principalities? It’s not my place to question one’s faith, but this kind of thinking irresistibly begs the question…

    • Libercrite, to repeat my answer to Joe above, just in case you miss it there: There’s a difference between how I choose to live as an individual and how I think the nation should be run. I choose to live as a Christian, in a nation where people are free to choose. It sounded to me as if Chhelo was giving Greg (an atheist, I believe) a choice between a Muslim theocracy and a Christian theocracy. And neither I nor my Jewish friends want this country to be either one.

  7. Steve, James, FL, And Kells (am I leaving anyone out?) I thank you for you support. I don’t expect you to agree with me, but I respect that you stick to the issues instead of sticking the messenger.

    BTW, next year, my wife and I are going to Israel. We are visiting a jewish emigre there, but he is going to take us into the Palestinian villages; it won’t be a charter bus tour, that’s for sure.

      • I agree that the Palestinian issue in not all inclusive, but it sure provides many of the current radicals/terrorists an effective propaganda tool.

      • Augger, point me to some places off the guided tour. Don’t tell me you didn’t at least try to get into the Palestinian’s heads.

        • “Augger, point me to some places off the guided tour. Don’t tell me you didn’t at least try to get into the Palestinian’s heads.”

          Will do. At the age I was, I did not spend too much time trying to get in to their heads. I spent a great deal of time attempting to get in to their britches though. 🙂

          ::: shrugs ::: It was the 80’s … Good times, good times. I think I held a pretty good track record.

        • “Augger, point me to some places off the guided tour.”

          Forgot this point earlier. It’s been a few years (laughs), but there used to be a great place to eat called Hannibal’s. Surely though you are going to Jerusalem, so make sure you try the food in the old city (thats the part inside the walls). Bethlehem is a must see, even with the tours all about. To get the feel for the locals (i.e. passing up Capt Anderson’s and hitting Hunts), just wave down a cab and ask them to show you around.

          Given what I know of you, you will enjoy Masada, and the Dead Sea (take a change of clothes, and wade out in to it … your feet will leave the bottom and you will float due to the salinity). The Golan Heights is amazing as is Galilee.

          Personally, I am a huge fan of the kibbutz life. Experience some of it while you are there.

          No matter what you do in Israel, you really cannot go wrong.

          • “(i.e. passing up Capt Anderson’s and hitting Hunts)”

            LOL the last time I ate at Cpt. Anderson’s, the Scamp Imperial was $24.95 and the portion was so small, I felt like a tourist. Went to Le Shack faithfully, after that. 🙂 Can never get into Randy’s place anymore. LOL!

          • Thanks, Augger, I appreciate the tips. Yes, I read about kibbutz life in Michener’s book.. The Israelis are tough bastids, i recognize what they have done, built a prosperous nation out of freaking desert, while surrounded by enemies who want them destroyed. No ,matter how they came to be there, they are there now, and they have earned their right to the land. A prosperous Israel in a peaceful Middle East would be good for everyone in the region, a final peace would set off an economic gold rush that would have people too busy earning a living to be angry at their neighbor.

            Oh well, time to fill the pipe again….

    • I’m sure you will take your Gutter mouth and Biased Liberal Hatred with you as evidenced by this Gem of a Comment from you….

      melfamy
      July 6, 2013 at 06:12 Reply
      3 2 i
      Rate This

      My god, you must have a pussy mine, or be one hell of a ditch digger, because, judging solely by your comments in this forum, you are too stupid to make money any other way.

  8. Pingback: ISLAM: What the West does not Know or Understand | The Oil in Your Lamp

  9. Pingback: Beck Doubles Down on His Ignorance Of Islam (and even Christianity) | The Oil in Your Lamp

Talk Amongst Yourselves:

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.