Comrade Karl Tries to ‘T-Up’ the Ball so He can ‘Hit a Homer’ – STILL Strikes Out!

RNL read, Comrade Karl, posted this comment:


Capital is unnecessary for society. You don’t need money to build a factory or a laboratory. All you need is materials and laborers. Capital is just an inefficient way for a few to control the materials and labor of the collective. Plus you have failed to illustrate how capital is an efficient way of advancing the material well being of the people. Capital is an efficient way to make more capital. But this leads to crisis.

OK, let’s apply a little logic to this statement to see how well it holds up under the light of reason.

1 — If I have a pile of ‘materials. and a bunch of ‘laborers,’ is that really ‘all I need to build my factory?’  Why are the laborers going to build the factory?  Do they even know how to build it?  If not, who is going to teach them?  And who will coordinate them?  Or do we let every one of them decide what they will do?  And if we do, what happens when everyone steps back and says they are waiting to do their part — paint the offices?  How is the factory ever going to get built then? And none of this addresses how we deal with people who decide they only want to work 5 minutes every day, or at night, or only on Tuesdays…

Do you see how and why Karl’s assertion is false?

2 — Is capital just an inefficient and all about control?  Well, we already demonstrated that there is no way to build our factory with just material and labor.  Now, what if the factory is being built by a person who will own it?  This person then borrows the money to buy the materials.  He hires a foreman to oversee the building.  He convinces the foreman to do this willingly by offering enough money to convince the foreman he wants to do the job.  The factory owner then uses money to find the people who willing to do the jobs the foreman tells them to do the way he tells them to do it in return for the money the factory owner is willing to pay.  There you go: the free market has EFFICIENTLY resolved the problems we just identified in Karl’s dream.

3 — But does Capitalism lead to crisis?  Not necessarily.  Karl is assuming the people will have no choice, but is this true?  NO!  I do not have to go work for the factory owner.  And this is another of Karl’s attempts to force people to work within his world: he is putting his ball on the ‘T.’ but he keeps striking out because his conditions are not reality.  Not only can a worker refuse to work for the factory owner, the worker can become his own boss.  Maybe he won’t own a factory, but he might be able to cut lumber or make brick so he can then sell it to the factory owner to make his factory.  And THAT is how a free market works.

Now, what Karl calls a ‘crisis’ and blames on Capitalism comes from his inability to see anything but the material.  Once again, Karl tries to put his ball on the ‘T.’  Sadly for Karl, the heart of a human is NOT material, nor is it motivated by JUST material causes.  If a person is lazy, then they will allow the factory owner to pay politicians to bribe them into voting for these politicians on the promise that they will ‘make the factory worker pay.’  Then, when the lazy worker catches on to what happened, blames the ‘corrupt’ factory owner and his political lackey.  But who was corrupt first, and why?  THE WORKER!  BECAUSE HE WANTED SOMETHING FOR NOTHING!

That is not the fault of the free market: it is human nature.  And human nature is not material, so Karl’s theories have no foundation in reality.  He might as well be hoping his labor will use his material to build his factory in the clopuds 🙂

 

 

36 thoughts on “Comrade Karl Tries to ‘T-Up’ the Ball so He can ‘Hit a Homer’ – STILL Strikes Out!

  1. “Capital is unnecessary for society. You don’t need money to build a factory or a laboratory. All you need is materials and laborers. Capital is just an inefficient way for a few to control the materials and labor of the collective. Plus you have failed to illustrate how capital is an efficient way of advancing the material well being of the people.”

    I read this and was just going to pass on it because unless Karl can expound, it makes no sense at all. Where is the motivation for the laborers to build the factory? To me that’s the issue in a nutshell. Workers are motivated by the oldest needs in the world; food, clothing, and shelter. Without being supplied these three necessities, there is no motivation to work. The “state” cannot supply these things to everyone indefinitely so the worker is expected to pay at least a nominal sum for them somehow. That requires capital – capital to purchase the materials for the factory (materials are not free), capital to pay the laborers (laborers do not work for free).

    Even in Marxist regimes of the past, workers have had to be paid. Even the peasants that could grow food sold (for cash or barter) the food to other people who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) grow their own. What actually happened was the “worker” was held in near serfdom while the leaders lived in opulence, there was no middle class. Capital is necessary for society. Without a form of capital, there is no exchange of goods or services.

    • FC,

      Let’s take this one step farther and grant Karl is fantasy scenario: we have no money in our world.

      Now, let’s go even further and say people just work for free.

      Now, who is going to do the farming when we can all stand in the store and do the selling? After all, one of those jobs is much easier than the other, so how are we going to divide the necessary jobs without FORCING someone to do something they do not want to do?

      I know YOU get this, but Karl doesn’t — and likely never will. But that is because Karl is trying to convince us that he should be the one we all work for without HIM ever doing ANYTHING .. 😉

      • You’re right, of course. The person that has the knowledge and resources to grow the produce will not do so if he is compensated at the same rate as the person that merely picks the produce. That’s where force comes in. You force the scientist to work at the same rate of compensation as the tomato picker? Not in this lifetime you don’t. Where then is the motivation to become a scientist? Do you do it for the greater good of the collective, even though you will not be compensated for your skills and knowledge?

        • Well, in Karl’s world, the scientist does it because he… well, Karl (and Marx) never really explained WHY these people will work harder for the benefit of others. I suppose it has something to do with their magic wand of “I want it that way.” Too bad for them that the real world doesn’t work that way 🙂

      • Who is going to farm in the future? The people who don’t want to starve to death. The same reason people work in a capitalist society, so they can buy a house or rent it and not end up in the streets.

        In a socialist society you would be free to contribute as much as you would like to. If you live in a farming commune and you want to live in a small house, the commune would put a lower quota on your production since you take up less space, and use less energy. If you want to live in a huge house, you will have a higher production quota since you house takes up more space and requires more man hours to air condition and light. It all depends on how many man hours you are consuming.

        “Karl (and Marx) never really explained WHY these people will work harder for the benefit of others”

        You right, why should anyone ever work harder for the benefit of others. If a farmer only needs to make 20 tons of tomatoes, why would he make 21 tons? If My housing arrangement requires me to produce only 20 tons, I will make only 20 tons.

        But lets say I am a particularly lazy and ingenious farmer who wants to spend less time in the field. And I devise an apparatus, called the robo-farmer2000, I present this idea to my fellow farmers and then we decide to produce more so we can take out more social labor, in this instance the labor of metal workers and engineers. And now we have the robo-farmer2000 and we have advanced production technology. Or maybe we want to work harder to make a water park. so we make that instead. And all farmers who didn’t produce more tomatoes to fund the water park aren’t allowed entry since they did not contribute labor.

        • “In a socialist society you would be free to contribute as much as you would like to. If you live in a farming commune and you want to live in a small house, the commune would put a lower quota on your production since you take up less space, and use less energy.”

          GOT YOU!

          See, the ‘commune will assign.’ I TOLD you Karl didn’t want you to be free. He has ALWAYS intended to dictate to you — period. He just wants to make sure he can be the dictator.

          Thanks, Karl,

          That was easy (it usually is) 🙂

          • How? If me and Joe lived in a commune, And I proposed giving Joe sandpaper for toilet paper(I wouldn’t). The other members of our community would laugh and say “Karl, shut up.” They would have a vote and my proposition would be defeated.

            • See, I told you Karl believes in dictatorship. In this case, it is the tyranny of the majority — where Ralph, Silenceofthemind and I can vote to eat Karl for breakfast, then go back to living according to Natural Law — the free market. See how simple this is?

              Karl,

              What if three people vote to have YOU do all the work for them? This is EXACTLY what Marxism is, and why it fails.

              • Yes I support democracy. If for some reason I lived in an obscenely small commune will you three, and we voted to eat me. Than what could I do? I am trapped and surrounded, I can’t escape. I will be breakfast. You speak about natural law. Real natural law(might is right) dictates the majority wins. I won’t be able to fight off three attackers, whether Thomas Jefferson/Christ/Muhamad/”Natural law” say that you guys shouldn’t eat me won’t matter. Unless I have kung fu skills (I don’t). But if I did the law of might would still be in place, because the stronger defeated the weaker.

                It is unlikely someone would get voted into exploitation, since that one individual would probably turn violent and put at risk the safety of those who voted against him. A vote to exploit someone is like a vote to put a sign on your back that says “kill me.” if some is voted into exploitation and engages in a to the death struggle, the future source of exploited labor will have either died or killed someone who voted against him, which mean either the vote to exploit was useless because the exploitee is dead. And counter productive. It is hard to enjoy the labor of the exploited when you are 6 feet in the ground. So to keep harmony and everyone alive it is better that we all get along.

        • “You right, why should anyone ever work harder for the benefit of others. If a farmer only needs to make 20 tons of tomatoes, why would he make 21 tons? If My housing arrangement requires me to produce only 20 tons, I will make only 20 tons.”

          What happens when you fail to make your 20 tons, Karl? Does the collective boot you out or turn off your power? After all, someone has to “pay” the power provider with something.

          • you have to make it up next harvest, and consume less than you produced. Hopefully You might have used one year’s bumper crop as pre-payment for a possible bad or lazy year. If one harvest you make 100 tons, you can take the next 5 years off and consume at the 20 ton level.

            • But you said if your quota was 20 tons, you wouldn’t produce any more than that. I take that to mean that even in bumper crop times, you would stick to your 20 ton quota. You do see that’s what’s wrong with your theory. Yes, if you produced 25 tons during a bumper crop year, you would have a surplus to sell, store or barter. That extra “pre-payment” you refer to is called “capital”.

        • Karl,

          The wealth of nations depends on the individual acting in his own self interest doing what he does best.

          That basic economic principle is called “comparative advantage.” And each person, each town, each state, each country acting in its own self-interest doing what it does best is how people and nations become filthy rich.

          And having as many filthy rich people as possible is how the scourge of poverty is reduced to a minimum. Charity can only be used for people who are temporarily down and out or completely disabled.

          Normal, healthy people able to act in their own self-interest doing what they do best flourish in the free market but have their souls murdered in your absolutely criminal Mickey Mouse economy which is really a kleptocracy (rule by thieves).

          Your philosophy, Mickey Mouse economics, aka Marxism, is proven to fail every where and every time it is tried. That is because it depends on state-mandated slavery (where the riches are stolen by bureaucrats), instead of liberty and self-interest.

        • “In a socialist society you would be free to contribute as much as you would like to.”

          Sign me up, Karl. My offer, I either contribute nothing, or contribute the better genes to your spouse.

          Well, provided she does not look like a troll.

  2. There was a real problem in early America, when the government tried to tax whiskey. The Whiskey Rebellion of 1792 which mostly happened in 1793) was a result of the government trying to tax “money” , capital , if you will. The farmers of western Pa. saw whiskey, solely as barter or “capital”. If they had money , per se, the government wouldn’t tax that, but their “money” was corn whiskey. It was how you preserved corn in 1790’s. So, a rebellion was born.
    It was due to the gov. not understanding “capital”., in the vernacular of my hillbilly ancestors.
    What Karl always leaves out of any of his sociological engineering “equations” is AMBITION. Not surprising as Marx avoided trying to quantify ambition. (Now why would a Marxist avoid ambition?) It may have been because Marxists don’t understand personal ambition or a desire to improve one’s “self” on one’s own. When someone wishes to sit on the couch and pontificate on the sorry state of capitalism, and that’s the sum of their existence ……..
    By the way, the final score of the Whiskey Rebellion was,
    HILLBILLIES,— beat the snot out of and burned the houses of, several “tax” collectors.
    GOVERNMENT— collected ZERO taxes, arrested 2 (later pardoned by the Governor) and couldn’t find anyone with the AMBITION to be a Government Worker (tax collector)

    • You are correct Ralph, and I believe many of the Founders themselves produced Rye Whiskey as a way of having “Savings”…..Jefferson, Washington and others had multiple stills on their properties…..as the Rye was used for barter from person to person because it didn’t “go bad”.

  3. Capitalism was in fact a response to the Shortcomings of a Society of peasants (workers) and rulers……..a sociaety ruled by Elites where wealth was disdributed based on Favors and Birth.

    Capitalism gave the opportunity for any individual to Prosper regardless of birth or Connection. Capitalism created elites but also created the opportunity forthose in Lowwer Social positions to excercise their power through Economic Decisions !

    Thus with Capitalism and Political Freedom there was ( and IS ) a Backwards Flow of Input from poorer people to the Richer people. Prior to this there was NO opportunity for those NOT in the Elite class to have any affect on their lives.

  4. Let’s say cotton farmers need to process cotton into clothes. So the cotton farmers and other fellow laborers work together to make a cloth factory and now everyone has clothes. hooray. You do need capital to tell you, you need clothes.

    Joe says people have a choice about working for a capitalist. Not true.

    Let’s say I just graduated from high-school from a poor family. How Am I going to get a place of my own, buy a car and pay for food and electricity. Oh yeah I have to get a job. Can I work for myself? No, I’m just starting out on life, I have no savings. So Joe, maybe some segments of the bourgeoisie, or people who have found themselves in the few middle class jobs still around, can afford to save up money and start a business, but for the majority this is impossible.

    Bribery can only take place when property is private and power is not in the hands of the people. In a true sense property is power. This is a fact the bourgeoisie will cover up. If the workers were to realize property is power, the would stop demanding meaningless laws against the bourgeoisie, and start demanding the means of productions themselves. As has been proven by history, money trumps laws. You cannot have the rule of law, the rule of the people. At the same time you have private property. Rule of law within an environment of private property, is rule of laws written by those with the most private property.

    • Karl,

      Why do the workers help build the factory? Others will do that for them, they just have to wait. Then others will farm the cotton and make the clothes and all they have to do is show up according to their needs.

      As for your ‘needs’ after you graduate: You are still trying to put your ball on the ‘T.’ Who said you need to move out? This is what family used to be fore — BEFORE YOU MARXISTS STARTED CONVINCING PEOPLE TO SHIRK THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES! Besides, if this is a concern, you had 3-5 years BEFORE you graduate to get a job and save for when you graduated.

      Now, if you think bribery cannot happen in a socialist, collectivist environment — I POINT YOU TO CHINA!

      You just struck out again, Karl 🙂

      • The workers build the factory in order to produce clothes. And no, no one else will build it for them. Only workers can make factories.

        China still has and preserves private property.

        According to Joe everyone can be rich, if they just work hard enough and have thrift. but this I not true. What if your parents die, your brother gets cancer. Compare that to being Mitt Romney’s son. Let’s face it, equality of opportunity is a lie. And the fact that one kid from the ghetto might become a millionaire, does not solve the monopolistic tendencies of capitalism and the corrupting properties of private property.

        • Karl,

          Stop putting the ball on the T. You’ve already shown us you still can’t hit it.

          This time, you are trying to tell us that the only thing in life worth working for is to be rich. Tell that to a monk, or a nun. But in YOUR world, they will be forced to do what they might not want to do — and that is not freedom, it is slavery — WHICH IS WHAT MARXISM REALLY IS!

          Oh, and YOU said so, not me. 🙂

          • “This time, you are trying to tell us that the only thing in life worth working for is to be rich”

            How?
            All I have said is that a couple of poor people becoming obscenely wealthy does not solve the crisis of capitalism, as I have described to libercrite.

    • Now you just need “perfect” (that is , ambitionless) administrators, for your perfect system. Oh, wait , no administrators right.?

    • “Let’s say I just graduated from high-school from a poor family. How Am I going to get a place of my own, buy a car and pay for food and electricity. Oh yeah I have to get a job. Can I work for myself? No, I’m just starting out on life, I have no savings. So Joe, maybe some segments of the bourgeoisie, or people who have found themselves in the few middle class jobs still around, can afford to save up money and start a business, but for the majority this is impossible.”

      Karl’ Yes , you are “forced ” to provide for yourself.. You could go to the forest, or the mountains, or the ocean, and procure food, shelter, and clothing. So, you are not forced to “work for the man”.
      Or, you could choose to learn to do something………..useful.For which you would be compensated( perhaps not as much as you would like) and as you become more proficient at this ” useful” occupation, you could branch out,. perhaps work extra hours, for yourself at night, or at some point, have the knowledge to start5 that business. And Karl, there are GOVERNMENT programs to help you start your own business. The Small Business Admin. will guarantee loans…..if you can produce a viable business plan…..or, there are those EVIL venture capitalists (like Mitt Romney) who will aid a company if it looks to have potential.
      BUT, it all hinges on one key word….the one you , and all your cohorts avoid. …..A_M_B_I_T_I_O_N
      If your get-up-and-go, got-up-and-went, without you…… well, too many people in this country have been way too successful for you to simply dismiss their achievement.as luck or however you dismiss success. What I hear from you is ENVY, give me as much as they have , or the system is unfair..

      I’ll repeat the part you LACK —– AMBITION AMBITION AMBITION AMBITION AMBITION AMBITION

      • This same ambition drives the monopolistic tendencies of capitalism. Like I said if some poor people can become rich, does not solve the effects of capitalism.

        Capitalism isn’t about giving people what they need it is about selling people what is profitable. so even though we might need manufacturing jobs in the U.S.A it is way more profitable to send jobs to the third world. Even though we might need to secure our borders in order to stabilize the labor market. It is cheaper and more profitable to give amnesty to immigrants in order to get cheap labor.

          • Ambition to be better is great. A socialist society does not prevent this, if you want to be the best hockey player or poet or plumber, than you can go for it.

  5. I have yet to see Karl reply to any post with anything pragmatic. I feel like I’m reading a textbook when I read Karl’s posts. Hell, I felt the same way during my many hours of watching videos of debates out at Fauxccpy Wallstreet. I feel the same way when I have discussions with coworkers who are self proclaimed anarchists and Marxists. The more I read the stunning theory that gave W. E. B. Dubois an instant hard on, the more I realize this: Marxist theory should stay right where it was conceived. In the Field of Dreams.

    Ralph, Karl doesn’t have the ability to view Capitalism or attribute of Capitalism as evil. Evil doesn’t exist to him. Unfortunately, this is where his whole entire critique of Capitalism falls apart (ironically before it even begins). His criticisms revolve entirely around a moral argument against the evils of Capitalism. Consider: If exploitation is evil and evil doesn’t exist, what is the problem with exploitation? If slavery is evil and evil does not exist, what is the problem with slavery? If capital is evil and evil does not exist, the what is wrong with having capital? You can’t condemn any of these things without making a moral argument. Karl condemns these by moral reasoning, then turns around and denies the very means of his argument.

    If Karl had actual criticisms of Capitalism based on economic pragmatism or some dynamic of business such as logistics or operations, he would at least have his foot in the door with a substantial argument. Instead he argues completely from theory and usually ends up committing some form of the “begging the question” fallacy. Fortunately for us, we have actual history (not mere sociological/economic/political science theory) to observe both systems, and to make an argument based off of the interpretation history.

    • I view capitalism as unsustainable and as a restraint on society. Not as Evil. I don’t say “oh look at the poor workers” I say “what cab of future will there be if we follow a capitalist path?” I my opinion the socialist/communist path is better than the capitalist/fascist/feudalist path.

      I see the rate of profitability dropping as third world wages going up, this will lead to even more monopolization, since firms will have to have enormous amounts of capitals to pay for the construction of the new means of production. This monopolization will lead to a better relationship between the monopolies and it’s servant the bourgeoisie state. the two will become one, and turn into fascism/corporatism. As time goes on, new corporatist laws will come into play. Such as only people who have served in the military or own mortgage-less real estate are allowed to vote. this will create a new politically powerful gentry and a new landless and political powerless peasantry. Corporatism will gradually become feudalism.

      • Let me ask you this, what has the socialist/communist path actually shown us? These theories that you have no shortage of, say otherwise on the most pragmatic scale to weigh them on: history. Until you Can competently dispute that, the reality is, all you have are theories, conjectures, baseless projections, and unsupported predictions.

  6. I have been singin Karl’s song for years…..I just didn’t realize until now how well it fit the Maxist / Socialist Utopia
    Big Rock Candy Mountains by Harry McClintock

    One evening as the sun went down
    And the jungle fires were burning,
    Down the track came a hobo hiking,
    And he said, “Boys, I’m not turning
    I’m headed for a land that’s far away
    Besides the crystal fountains
    So come with me, we’ll go and see
    The Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
    There’s a land that’s fair and bright,
    Where the handouts grow on bushes
    And you sleep out every night.
    Where the boxcars all are empty
    And the sun shines every day
    And the birds and the bees
    And the cigarette trees
    The lemonade springs
    Where the bluebird sings
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
    All the cops have wooden legs
    And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
    And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
    The farmers’ trees are full of fruit
    And the barns are full of hay 
    Oh I’m bound to go
    Where there ain’t no snow
    Where the rain don’t fall
    The winds don’t blow
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
    You never change your socks
    And the little streams of alcohol
    Come trickling down the rocks
    The brakemen have to tip their hats 
    And the railway bulls are blind
    There’s a lake of stew
    And of whiskey too
    You can paddle all around it
    In a big canoe
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
    The jails are made of tin.
    And you can walk right out again,
    As soon as you are in.
    There ain’t no short-handled shovels,
    No axes, saws nor picks,
    I’m bound to stay
    Where you sleep all day,
    Where they hung the jerk
    That invented work
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
    ….
    I’ll see you all this coming fall
    In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

  7. I’m goin’ where the water tastes like wine
    I’m goin’ where the water tastes like wine
    We can jump in the water, stay drunk all the time

  8. Rye whiskey, Rye whiskey, Rye whiskey I cried
    With out my rye whiskey I surely will die

    If the ocean was whiskey , and I was a duck,
    I’d dive to the bottom , and drink my way up!

    • i have that album, ralph! The Ralph Humter Choir. I have my original and one I bought on EBay. I Ride an Old Paint, Strawberry Roan were some of the other songs. Still a favorite album, after 55 years.

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