The Collectivist Oblame-Game

LESSONS IN LOGIC: Why Collectivists MUST Blame Others For Their Failures

Among the many things our society must learn to demand is the freedom to start thinking for ourselves again, because, when we do, it will be easier to see the obstacles that have been placed in the way of taking back the rest of our rights and liberties.  Here’s an example of what I mean and how it works:

Collectivists never accept responsibility for their failures.  They always blame it on a scapegoat.  But why do they do this?  I have heard many people offer many explanations, but the answer is actually much simpler than most of the examples I have heard – and it is probably because the answer is much more simple (and obvious) than we’ve been conditioned to expect.  The answer is this simple:

Read the rest here…

31 thoughts on “The Collectivist Oblame-Game

  1. The Soviet Union dun goofed up. I said it. The right wing and their perfect constitution and founding fathers can only blame ‘progressives’ for the current hyper-capitalism of today. I on the other hand will say Lenin, Stalin and Mao made mistakes. Marxism unlike right-wingism does not believe in perfect people, divine messengers, prophets. Just like Joe believes his view of “natural law” is nothing less than the word of god and the eternal true laws of the universe. When will right-wingers realize they are not prophets or servants of deities, but merely humans.

    • Karl,

      What you call ‘hyper-capitalism’ is actually FASCISM. This is when business partners with govt (where govt. retains the higher authority — as it ALWAYS does in the real world) . Business then seeks govt. favoritism so as to limit competition. Now, while it is true, Capitalism can exist in this form, THIS IS NOT THE FREE MARKET!!! It is State Capitalism or partnership between govt./private sector, and BOTH are forms of FASCISM! And guess what, Karl? Fascism is a kissin’ cousin of Communism.

      Now, what you have done — again (because you must do this to have any chance of winning this argument) — is change the actual argument. No one has argued the founders were Capitalists. They supported the FREE MARKET! These are NOT the same thing, but you must treat them that way or cede the point. And once you do that, you have admitted that Marx and you followers are as wrong as a football bat.

      • Free-markets exacerbate class conflict. When the bourgeoisie win there is a transition to fascism, when the workers win there is a transition to socialism.
        Free-markets are a temporary station. As markets and technologies emerge, certain capitalist will be better at business and implementing innovations and capture the market, in other words create monopolies. A permanent free-market is impossible. Competition leads to losers and winners and the winners establish monopolies. Which leads to hyper-capitalism which leads to fascism.

        • Karl,

          Seriously, are you this Blind — or just willfully ignorant?

          There is “class conflict” under socialism, and that is why Communism is impossible — because there will ALWAYS be c”class conflict.” IT’S HUMAN NATURE!

          Trying to reason with you really is like arguing with a wall — literally.

          • “Seriously, are you this Blind — or just willfully ignorant?”

            Neither, and don’t think too much in to it. Karl is just simply another card carrying asshole member of The Free Shit Army. Nothing more, nothing less.

            • Augger,

              Sadly, I am well aware of that — and to the depths and depravity the FSA will go to justify what is nothing more than theft. Their ideas are designed to do nothing more than convince others to join them in their greed so as to assuage their guilt.

            • Karl,

              If you can’t see it, how is it you can say there is class conflict in the free market? I’m serious?

              You see, the problem you have is you see things ONLY in terms of money and possessions. Now, if we grant that you actually care about the welfare of the people, then you are the exception we need to prove that humans can and are motivated by more than just money. Which then means class can and is defined by more than money.

              Within the Catholic Church — where they swear a vow of poverty — there are classes. The same thing applies to all human society. It doesn’t matter what is valued, there will be classes within that system. And so it is that there are classes within socialism, and — as the many experiments have proven — even within Communist communes (which is probably why few people stay long and they always fail — because they do not work and eventually lead to tyranny).

  2. Guys. Take it a little easier on Karl.
    Karl is young. Life experience moves us in many different directions. Perhaps Karl has some radical Marxist ideas, and an incomplete understanding of Marx overall, but give Karl time… Karl states”Marxism unlike right-wingism(sic) does not believe in perfect people,” when in fact, Marx does believe that humans are perfectable, and thus his “perfect” system.(see “Dialectical Materialism”)
    There will ALWAYS be those who do, and those who wait for someone else to do. Those who do, will always surpass those who wait. And therein lies the “rub”.Those who give their best, will lose patience with those who “ride along”
    Let’s look at union shops(Marxist / communist ideals at work). Who gets advantages? The one who does the best job, or the one who has seniority? Seniority wins the day. Thus , everyone drops their standard. Why give top effort when there is no reward.? Marx did not understand that. He was not really ever able to earn a living, and relied throughout most of his life on other people to support him.(sound like a familiar refrain)
    So beating on Karl verbally is no way to treat a less experienced human being. I know I have hit Karl a time or two, and have to apologize for heavy handedness.
    Let’s all work to help Karl understand that we don’t view the Constitution , or the founders, as perfect. In fact, Karl may not realize that the Constitution has within it the confession that it is flawed, and the means to alter it to a better document.
    Karl, all you have to do to make your changes, Constitutionally, is to convince 2/3 of both houses of congress of the Perfection Of Marx, then convince 3/4 of the states of the same. Now more than half of the Senate already agrees with Karl, and California, New York , Hawai’i , Much of New Jersey and Pennsylvania, Wisconson(well the Marxists may be losing ground in Wis.) And Detroit, are all just about ready to form their own Marxist country. So Karl the work is ahead. Get out there and DO something
    Yes, our Constitutional Republic is flawed. The thing is , if you read enough of the founders(and there is a wealth of letters, diaries and essays available), they pronounced it thus, and worked to improve it ….always. Some letters you might want to start with are the correspondence between (2nd) cousins Samuel and John Adams. One a Federalist, and one an anti-Federalist. I’ll not spoil the plot, you can decide which was which. (And I’ll bet you always thought Sam Adams was only a beer). Now , no wikipedia!, honor system here. A smart person like you can easily find those documents , on line and in libraries.(you will have to leave the house to go to the library)

    Joe, and Utah write quite a bit about Jefferson and Madison and Washington. I’ve always related more to George Mason, who refused to sign on to the Constitution without a Bill Of Rights, and worked very hard to help create it, co authoring many of the first ten amendments..
    Read the Constitution with an eye to the details. it is much less wordy than “Capital” and touches much less on economics. More to Government formation…and LIMITATIONS. It is not a capitalist document. It is a FREEDOM document.
    AND you might want to read the “Federalist Papers”. A little dry at times, but if you could get through”Das Kapital” and “The Communist Manifesto” “Federalist Papers” will be a walk in the park>

    I can tell you from personal experience, there are not enough hours in the day to read all that yopu will want to read. each document will lead you to others, and people here are constantly recommending more. So good luck.

    And Joe, Utah, let’s try to help Karl understand our position, and not bludgeon Karl’s head. OKAY? Okay.

    • Ralph,

      I am just guessing, but you might be coming to this a little later in the conversation. We have tried and tried and TRIED to explain all of this to Karl — many times; until we no longer have the patience you request. There comes a point where a person crosses from “not knowing” over to willful ignorance. Karl made that crossover long ago and is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge any evidence contrary to his ideas.

      Now, on a personal note: Jefferson was an anti-federalist who had to be convinced to switch sides. Had he not done so, the Constitution may not have been ratified. I have cited this, and Henry many times. I have also told people they cannot understand the Federalist papers without reading them side-by-side with the Anti-Federalists. And I have explained that nearly EVERY warning/concern the Anti-Federalists expressed has come to pass — much the way they said it would, too. So I hope you do not think I am blind to the interplay that was involved in founding our nation 🙂

      • Joe
        I have been here for many of the conversations with Karl. Participated in some , and saw others where my input would have been just extra. It has not seemed to work, many of us piling on , and calling names etc. SOOO …I just want to try a new tack.

        Also, I wasn’t commenting on the validity of Jefferson, Madison, et al, I was just pointing Karl to some other ,less mentioned voices in the founders choir. And, if Karl can plow through “Das Kapital” and the “Communist Manifesto”, and Any of Engel’s or Hegel’s tomes, then the Federalist and Anti-Federalist essays should prove to be clear and open ..
        Not wanting to step on toes, just trying to move in new directions on the same subject.
        John and Samuel Adams , to me, points to the interesting part of the divisions amongst the founders, even among family members.
        And since iI have self-identified with George Mason, it puts me strongly in the Bill of Rights camp.

        I don’t think YOU are missing the interplay, or the fine points, I think KARL has never looked at them.

        • Ralph,

          Thanks, I understand your point much better now. Which is why I will no state the obvious: if Karl does not want to see the other side, he never will.

          The thing is, I know I can state Marx’s case as well (possibly even better) than Karl, and I strongly suspect you could do the same, but I don’t think Karl could even marginally state ours. And that speaks volumes on the heart of the problem here — and that would be Karl’s heart. 😦

    • “Marx does believe that humans are perfectable, and thus his “perfect” system.(see “Dialectical Materialism”)”

      Humans are not perfect. Dialectal Materialism is a way of studying society. It is not a political system. Plato had his theories on society and how they evolved. Some Christian philosophers might be able to tie the recession to growing atheism through some Christian way of studying society. There are any amounts of ways to study society.

      Here I’ll explain my position and why I think it is correct.
      Socialism and communism the collective operation of resources and labor. Think of a village holding meetings on what to produce, grow and distribute. But instead it happens on a municipal scale for some things (local resources and construction) on a state scale for other things (Wildlife, rivers, agriculture, energy) and country scale for specialized industries (computers, aircraft, heavy machinery) and a global scale for rare resources (diamonds, gold, oil). It means that resources will be used by the people not for profit but for the goals of the people.
      Let’s say a small Texas deeply Christian town needs a new water treatment plant. But there is no tax money for it. What such a town has to do is try to bring new business, lets say the town in too far from a college town. So developers come in buy property, build strip clubs and bars and pays enough taxes the town can now afford a new water treatment plant. But the residents have to deal with drunk college students and strippers.
      If the town existed in a socialist world. The residents could just decide to produce a water treatment plant. In a capitalist world the town has the resources, labor but not the money. Money is needed to construct things to put labor and resources into action. In socialism all that is required is the consent of the workers. the people decide when to put themselves to work, not money. If I want to wittle a bear, I don’t need money. I need a knife and a piece of wood. If the town needs a water treatment plant they just need the resources and the workers. They get the resources by producing something they are capable of producing and their production goes as credit into getting something they need. For instance if the town has a tomato cannery, they can can tomatoes for themselves and also can can tomatoes for the worker’s councils that includes the towns that make water treatment tanks and filters.
      Again socialism is not a recipe, they are many ways of implementing it. This is just my view.

      Another thing is that capitalism does not stay stable.
      At the end of feudalism we had many private farmers. These private farmers grew crops competed on prices and sold their crops. As time went on some farmers went out of business and other became wealthy. Because some farmers are better than others and can handle money better. As the more successful farmers grew wealthier they need to expand their business. So they buy the farms from indebted farmers and grow even more wealthy. continue this for years and years and a monopoly and oligopoly start to develop. These immensely wealthy companies now hold disproportionate influence in the market and in gov’t.
      (Joe thinks all the laws in the world can stop corruption and other crimes. but in the end of the day he has it wrong. money>laws, not laws>money)
      This the fate of capitalist production. There will be an initial “free-market” period but it ends because some bourgeoisie are better than the rest. You can write all the anti-trust pro-free-market laws, but they will end up being repealed by the lobbying efforts of the wealthier bourgeoisie. you can’t stop it.
      In this period of monopoly capitalism. The monopolist start using the state to enhance their wealth, through wars of resources, favorable tax policy and favorable pro-outsourcing trade policy. These monopolist are not bourgeoisie, but are now private feudalist who control the resources, means of production and state.

      Socialism avoids this by giving direct control of the almighty property directly to the people. When property is controlled by the collective it cannot be used in an exploitive manner for private gain.

      • Karl,

        He did not say that Marx thought humans were perfect; he said (and correctly so) that Marx thought humans could be perfected. You need to start trying to understand what is being said before you change the topic and respond as though you were answering it. No one is falling for that trick here and it is only making you look… Well, it doesn’t make you look good.

        Ralph,

        The rest of Karl’s schpeal makes my point: he cannot faithfully state the other sides position. Now, if this is because he doesn’t want to or doesn’t understand it, I don’t know. All I know is he cannot do it. He MUST create straw men instead. It’s all he has. It’s all he seems to know.

      • Karl says:
        “If I want to wittle(sic) a bear, I don’t need money. I need a knife and a piece of wood.”
        Just a couple of questions,, Where are you going to get the KNIFE?. Will they just be laying around, for anyone to pick up, maybe rob or kill someone.?
        Now in today’s marketplace, a good carving knife can cost upwards of $85.00. In your Marxist Utopia, who is going to make that knife? And how did you get your hands on it.? And if it wasn’t well made, and the blade breaks, where will you gety another?

        • Why, he gets the knife from some chap who just wanted to make it and give it away for free — simply for the joy of it (and he has the nerve to knock Christians???).

          Then he gets the wood from someone who went out and collected it, just so they good give it to him for the joy of it.

          The real question is — in this utopian world of his — what is he doing whittling a bear? he should be out growing food or making clothes and giving it all away — just for the joy of it.

          😉

          Ralph,

          Karl will never understand that money is just a convenient convention for exchanging labor with each other, and for valuing one type of labor against another. But then, in Karl’s’ mind, the neurosurgeon should be considered equal to the ditch digger. After all, to do anything other is to undervalue one and over value the other, isn’t it?

          • Joe ,

            Truth to tell, I have never met a Marxist farmer I don’t know every farmer, but I know , and have known a bunch. For the most part hard working, close to the earth kind of people. .
            The Marxists are always talking about checking off the box for what they need (want) for this month/week/year, but I never see anything about them producing much of anything. Too many carving (whittling ) little bears. I guess they are all administrative or artistic types. You know, organizers, and entertainers.
            Most any farmer knows that producing food takes a lot of knowledge, hard work (Most I know pray a lot: for rain or sun or just another week before the first frost please, God), and sometimes a little help from our friends.
            That’s probably why the Bolsheviks killed most of the farmers in Russia when they took over. What with the praying , and all..
            Then , of course, no one knew how to farm. So just a little inconvenient famine here and there, nothing worth noting. Same thing in China under Mao. What 10 or 20 million here and there, what the hell?

            I just finished a good harvest. Some corn, tomatoes, radishes, carrots, pole beans, cabbages, leaf and head lettuce etc. Had to take some time in the middle for a family funeral, then back at it , canning,drying, preserving. After all that, took a couple bushels of corn and tomatoes to the church for the food ministry. Most of the people around here are small farmers, and usually grow for themselves, and the roadside stand. But they all seem to find their way to the church (many churches) with some extra. And yes Karl, they GIVE the food away.
            One thing , though I’m hard on to 70, and don’t know how many more years I can go at it like this, but my Grandpap had 5 acres of corn and another 2 acres in his truck patch at 85, so I’m looking forward to a few more harvests..

            I AM amused by Karl’s one statement” The residents could just decide to produce a water treatment plant”
            I guess, when you are young, the simplistic answer is the only answer. You don’t need anything except to trade your canned tomatoes for a water treatment plant.
            Those tomatoes had better be BODACIOUS! As long as Karl doesn’t have to produce the tomatoes, work at the cannery, or build the treatment facility, Karl’s good with the plan.
            There are so many hurdles between a and b that ….well it would require a book, just to ask all the questions. like Water treatment engineers?,l waste water management engineers,? Environmental hazards? Farm runoff? Since there is no government , no EPA, OSHA, DOT to require their approval? Architects? Are they all working for canned tomatoes.
            I brew some quality White LIghtnin’! I bet I can get them to work my project first. And , of course I’ll have “the farmer’s daughter”……. who could beat that.

            • Ralph,

              You and I both know it is ALL about justifying theft so you can live off the work of others, never have to do anything and tell people it is because YOU are the only one ‘smart enough’ to understand why it should be that way.

              That’s Marx in a nutshell.

              • Doesn’t Mitt Romney live off the labors of others? Capitalism does not prevent your main criticism of the false-communism the Right-wing media indoctrinates you to believe.

                Communism is people organizing to meet their needs.
                not
                Bureaucrats with knives who steal and hoard resources for fun.

                • Karl,

                  Romney gives back, you just refuse to recognize it. In truth, ALL employers give more than just money and/or direct benefits. You go to them because you cannot run your own company or are too lazy/scared to try. So they not only pay you to work for them, they provide you with their SERVICES — FREE OF CHARGE!!!

                  You see, they know how to run a company, so they do that for you AND pay you. And you are so ungrateful and covetous that you think you are deserved even more.

                  It’s all about you, ain’t it, Karl???

                • I am so glad you are an expert on Mitt Romney. I have so many unanswered questions. Being an uneducated redneck, and all that, I really would like to have some answers to questions that were never asked.
                  1. Exactly in how many companies did Bain Capital invest while Romney was associated with them?
                  2. Of the companies in which they invested, how many were bankrupt? How many were liquidated? and how many grew?
                  3. Of the ones which were bankrupt, how many of those reorganized and made a comeback? Were new jobs created? Lost? How many?
                  4. Of the ones liquidated, how many jobs were lost: and how many jobs were created by the companies that purchased the liquidated assets?
                  5 Of the companies that grew, how many jobs were created, and are any of them still growing/creating jobs?
                  6. Who gets credit for the continued growth, Bain/Romney or Obama?
                  And finally

                  Communism is an economic system that requires everyone to subjugate their own wants and needs to the needs/wants of the collective. It is a system devised by a man who had no skills, could not provide for his own sustenance , and had no desire to try to improve himself, thus a collective to care for him and others like him.
                  I provide for ME, and several others in the process. And when I get too old to do that anymore, I will die. And I will have DONE something while I was here. Oh, Marx left his mark alright . Creating generations of do nothings waiting for someone else to do something, and then pissin and moanin when those do something people have more than the doforme bunch.

                  Do yourself a favor. I’ll tell you what my grandfather told me, always have a trade to fall back on. There will always be people who need to have things done for them, because they have no skills. Don’t be one of those people. Someone will hire you if you can cut a straight line, weld, put pipes together that don’t leak, repair broken anything. Know about tools and how to use them.
                  I took that to heart I have lived through recessions, and this depression. I don’t miss meals, I have always had a roof over my head, and food for my family. Am I lucky, maybe. But when someone asks “can you fix…..” my answer is yes. and if I can’t you don’t owe me anything.
                  I have installed cable, telephones, kitchen cabinets, toilets,. I have worked in R&D on jet and rocket engines, and I have built computers and computer systems. I owned a photo studio(commercial) and sat on an advisory board for the dept of education. AND I have farmed this piece of God’s country. If anyone tries, they can.
                  STAR WARS …..YODA……”NOT TRY>>>>>DO!”

                  As I said earlier, If you want to see a communist society here, get to work! All you have to do is convince 2/3 of both houses of congress (you already have more than 1/2 of the Senate) and more than 50 % of the population of 3/4 of the states.
                  Quit sitting there, and get to humpin.

                  Something of a note here.. The only place that Marxism seems to be taken as a real good idea, is in the poly sci dept at Harvard and Berkley. Mr Obama seems to have some ideas on that line, but he was at Harvard. His Healthcare.gov seems to be a real hit.

                  • Communism under the inventor — Marx — worked so well his family was indigent and two of his children starved to death — but Marx lived well off of Engle’s Family money.

                    Thus setting the tone for how Communism TRULY is — and ever shall be.

            • As long as the farmers fill the needs of the larger community, the larger community will fill the need of the farmers. Farmers produce tomatoes. The steel workers provide steel, engineers will provide the know-how. The communities organize to provide for their need.

              “As long as Karl doesn’t have to produce the tomatoes, work at the cannery, or build the treatment facility, Karl’s good with the plan.”
              Why do you assume this?

              I find it hard to believe that most people grow only enough corn for themselves and their roadside stand. Corn is too cheap to make a profit on, without mass production and corn subsidies.
              @Joe
              the origins of the knife used for whittling is the larger community, that has let me use it, because I also contribute to the larger community.

              • Karl,

                That’s fine…in your dreams. But people — REAL people — do not work that way. You are trying to over turn the entirety of human history. I can tell you WITHOUT DOUBT that you WILL fail — and for that very reason.

                That’s also why you guys always end up killing millions: because the only way you can ‘prove’ your way works is to kill everyone who refuses to do what you command. Still not “Communism” as Marx described it — but Communism in the only form it can or will ever exist 😀

              • Way to ignore everything …except the price of corn…and you’ve grown how much corn.

                Corn my friend is a staple almost world wide. But my corn(aside from a couple bushels for the food ministry) will end up as a liquid (a lubricant actually)
                Sometimes I get so lubricated I slide right out of bed.
                But I’m sure the COMMUNITY (ists) would love it.
                “and the moon comes through the pines in Mason jars and gallon jugs”

                Now about those Romney questions….not rhetorical.

              • Karl:

                Ever been to a State run store in any of these Social Paradises? The shelves are full of products that no one wants or can’t use because they are poorly made. And those products that are useful or wanted can’t be found. When I was in the military it was common for anyone visiting the old Soviet Union to take a few extra pairs of Levi’s for trading material while there, because for some reason they couldn’t seem to produce any jeans themselves.

                You touched on the subject but slid right by it when you stated: ‘As long as the farmers fill the needs of the larger community, the larger community will fill the need of the farmers.’ Just who determines what the needs of the farmers are? The farmers? And who determines that the farmers are not meeting the needs of the larger community? After all, tomatoes take the resources of the larger Community. And the work provided by the farmers is their own. Therefore they have contributed to the larger community.

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