I’ve recently found myself involved in an extended discussion on another site over the issue of whether the American Conservative movement and Fascism, and Nazism by extension, are all movements of the “political Right.”  In recent years I’ve seen this emerge as a strategy of the Liberal/Progressives and their ever supportive media acolytes, to mislead American citizens about the origins of Fascism and the American Conservative and libertarian movements in order to present a “Right Wing” monster equivalent to the horrors of Soviet Russia, Communist China and other authoritarian regimes.  This Lib/Prog effort has been especially effective in keeping most Jewish Americans, who are naturally Conservative, from embracing American Conservatism due to the explicit tie the Libs claim to the Nazis.  Some of  my presumably younger friends in the discussion became discouraged with the multiplicity of labels and movements thrown into the conversation by Liberal discussants with the clear goal of muddying the issues involved.  At one point several of my friends suggested understanding where Fascism actually fits in the firmament of political movements and ideas might best be left to subjective personal assessments.  I disagreed and presented a new, and I think clearer paradigm for clarifying these issues.

I think it does matter what Fascism actually is, because it is the product of a very clear stream of thought within our broader intellectual history. Views of the appropriate relationship between individual citizens and their government have developed over the approximately 10,000-years that human societies have existed in one form or another. Virtually all civilizations prior to and after the American Revolution and the establishment of the US followed the same basic approach, which was and is authoritarianism. Whether a pharaoh, emperor, divine right king, or aristocracy ruled over the common subject, or an authoritarian government such as Fascism, Nazism, Communism, or Progressivism ruled, with the government itself taking on the power of the monarch, is really immaterial. The effect of rule by a king or an authoritarian political structure to the common human being is the same. He or she retains little or no control over the decisions that affect how he or she or their respective families live their lives, because those decisions are ultimately within the power and control of the authoritarian structure.

The last, brightest hope for humanity has always been the concepts of individual freedom, free markets and limited government that our Founders developed, based on the ideas that they drew from Classical Anglo American Liberalism. Those ideas occupy the entire “Right” side of the continuum that sloppy thinkers use to differentiate between political systems. As we all know, the differentiation of “Left” and “Right” was originally developed in pre-Revolutionary France to distinguish between those who supported the French Revolution (Left) and those who supported the Ancien Regime or the King (Right). Those titles have nothing to do with modern American politics and the sooner they disappear, the better.

As a bit of a thought experiment, let’s imagine a new political continuum, with neither left nor right, but with North and South poles. Those approaches north of the Equator on our continuum are those that structure the relationship between the government where the individual is free to make his or her decisions, as long as those decisions do not injure, coerce or otherwise disadvantage his or her fellow citizens. The government’s role in this northern hemisphere of our continuum is to protect the nation from foreign threats, prevent the coercion of one citizen by another in any way, protect the private property rights of all citizens from theft or fraud and enforce the execution of legal contracts. All government laws and activities are limited to those four basic responsibilities, with everything else the responsibility of the individual citizen. Under this northern solution individual freedom, free markets and limited government thrive, as does the economic growth of the nation and the quality of life for all its citizens. The only nation to exist north of the Equator most of the time has been the United States of America, based on our government’s adherence to the most brilliant political documents ever conceived in the world’s history…the American Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Every other nation in the history of our planet has lived south of the Equator in our continuum model. Again, the South Pole in our new model is where all power is held by an authoritarian government, with individual subjects, not citizens, subject to having everything that happens in their lives under that authoritarian regime subject to the government’s control. In our southern hemisphere are the ancient, medieval and modern empires and kingdoms where the aristocracies held the subjects in thrall to emperors, pharaohs, czars, kings and queens. But also in the southern hemisphere are all the forms of modern Collectivism, including Fascism, Communism, Nazism, Socialism, and American Liberal/Progressivism. All are malignant growths from the same diabolical root. All seek to centralize and exercise absolute power over the mass of the nation’s people by means of a government controlled by a designated elite and often focused on a “Supreme Leader.” So our American Liberal/Progressives have more in common with the tyrants and murderers of human history than with anything in the Founders’ vision for America!!!

All of the forms of government over the history of our race, other than American Democracy, have fallen in various locations in the Southern Hemisphere of our model. American Conservatism, libertarianism and even anarchism fall in the Northern Hemisphere and represent a radical break from all forms of Collectivism, authoritarianism, and totalitarianism. There is no common ground between what Liberal/Progressives try to categorize as “Right wing” movements, including Fascism and Nazism, and American Conservatism and libertarianism…NONE!!! Hence Progressive attempts to connect the American Conservative Movement to any form of “Right wing” or Collectivist movement is a false and misleading effort, just one more Liberal lie!!! So it does matter that Fascists are part of the worldwide Collectivist horde and have no common ground with American Conservatives or libertarians. CDEImage


  1. Thanks Charles,
    Another good explanation of the “range” of the political spectrum is shown near the beginning of this video:

    • texas: Thanks…I’ll take a look. I’ve grown tired with the blow-dried airheads in the media parroting the Progressive blather that Fascists and Nazis can somehow be grouped with American Conservatives and libertarians!!! All of the world’s worst political ideas and political structures can be grouped together at the Collectivist end of the political spectrum. It’s past time that we started stating this loudly and often. CDE

      • CDE,

        WRT the Jewish Americans……….Essentially Naturally Conservative ???………..They have been voting Democrat and Socialist for 100 years. This is a BIG topic in and of itself…….. Levin addresses it periodically. The only substantial Conservative political expression I’ve seen from them is within Israel.

        “Bow-dried Airheads”……. is that an anti- 1970s-1980s Bias… ??…………. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.. :- ) .

        • Don: My wife and her family are Jewish, and I am a longtime friend of Israel and Judaism generally. Many of the important leaders of the American Conservative and libertarian movements are Jewish and a large percentage of Jews today are Conservative in terms of their personal beliefs on economics, national security and most social issues. But most find it impossible to vote for Republican candidates because they have accepted the Liberal/Progressive propaganda that Conservatives are a “Right Wing” movement, as were, supposedly Hitler and the Nazis.

          Having said that, Jews, like my Irish ancestors, Italians, Poles and other immigrants, arrived in America and were immediately recruited by the Democrat Party, which controlled the large cities where most European immigrants, legal immigrants, first lived. Most ethnic groups have since diversified in terms of their political affiliations, but Jews have remained largely Democrat thus far. My theory is that the Holocaust was such a searing experience for the Jewish community in the US that the misunderstanding of how American conservatives are linked to the German Nazi Party has been sufficient to keep the majority of Jewish Americans Democrats. It is particularly ironic that FDR and Joe Kennedy were complicit in allowing Hitler and his goons to carry forward with their Final Solution by refusing to bomb European railroads that were carrying Europe’s Jews to horrific death in Nazi execution camps. Somehow that information continues to be suppressed by American academia and the Liberal/Progressive media.

          It is my belief that Jewish Americans, who are highly supportive of the nation of Israel and who are furious about the Obama Administration’s harassment of Prime Minister Netanyahu and their willingness to allow the Iranians, the world’s largest sponsor of state terrorism, to build and hold nuclear weapons, are ripe for conversion to American Conservative and libertarian values. They are finally recognizing what some have known for decades…that the Democrat Party, which was complicit in the Nazi murder of 6 MM European Jews, does not deserve the support or loyalty of the American Jewish community. Jews comprise 2% of the US population, they are more affluent on average than many other ethnic groups, and they vote in large numbers. The GOP should develop a strategy to welcome Jewish Americans into the party. Republicans are strong supporters of Israel, our only reliable ally in the Middle East, and the movement of American Jews from the Democrat to the Republican Party would represent a 4% swing to the GOP that would have won the 2012 election for the GOP!!! CDE

          • I have some familial experience with what you mention. The one avenue you left out is the strong Jewish population in the Media, especially at the executive level and in Academia. Both of these avenues lead to an influence far in excess to the percentage of population that is Jewish.

            I am really Glad you brought up the issue of the Lack of Bombing of the German Socialists Death trains……when you finally get your mind around it , it is one of those Slap your face OBVIOUS facts that goes un-realized because of the way the WWII Propaganda has been fed to us…in the Press…in the Schools and in the Entertainment Media. Once again ALL three areas have a Strong Jewish representation at the highest levels …. and yet the WWII Myths remain…..Which is “Curious” to say the least. And yes I use “Curious” in quotes with the full implication of “agenda un-expressed”.

            The fact is those Train Tracks could’ve been taken out with very little ordinance and with multiple hits would have kept the German Socialists(Nazis) busy trying to repair them. They would have had to make the decision to give up and focuse their Industrial efforts elsewhere….or repair them continuously at the expense of Arms manufacture….either way a shortening of the War.

            I have to admit, I just don’t see the American Jewish community AT LARGE ghanging at All. There are Lions of Liberty like David Horowitz and Bridgitte Gabriel and many others…..but the vast majority of American Jews are “readers of the New York Times” and all that implies………………… NOW I would LOVE to be wrong !! And I truely mean that….. I just don’t see it…….What I hear them saying is the same old…..Conservatives are “Stupid” refrain ala the Times and Washington Post and sycophantic TV commentators. It seems they have too much of an investment in thinking They and their Media and Political Idols are intellectually superior to the Average American to have a rational response to the Political Reality of Obama’s American takedown.

            Once again I would LOVE to be wrong……but I don’t think I am.

            • Don: As you know by now, I work at always being a rational optimist, and as a result put a high premium on not fooling myself by seeing things that aren’t really there. But Obama’s continual attacks on Israel and the presence of Islamists like Valerie Jarrett in his Cabinet have begun to create a grass-roots revolt against the traditional opinion leaders of the Jewish community, who still try to present Obama as a friend of Jews and of Israel. The distinction between scholars and business people in the Jewish community is also becoming reduced as everyone has access to global information sources and no longer needs to have so many things explained by those who have more time to study. Obama’s Muslim tilt and Iran’s acquisition of nuclear weaponry, which I see occurring by next fall, which by the way I was told by the recently retired Israeli ambassador to the US, will move many American Jews into the Conservative/libertarian camp. Not all, but even some is a major step forward. I will not bet on this happening, because it will be a very complex and volatile event if it happens, but I am hopeful the tide is changing with this very influential group in American society.

              All of your history is quite correct, as well!!! Last fall I met the author of the most recent biography of that great American gangster and hood, Joe Kennedy. This biographer had access to documents never before provided by the Kennedy clan and it is an authorized biography. It became clear to me during the author’s presentation that the Kennedys are trying to suppress the stories about Joe Kennedy’s mob connections in the 1920’s and 1930’s. I believe that was their goal in granting unprecedented access to family records. But when I posed questions about Kennedy’s lifelong Antisemitism, his hatred of Jews and his constant efforts to prevent Roosevelt from intervening to stop the Holocaust, the author shook his head and said those feelings and actions are very well corroborated by many sources. Joe Kennedy was a monstrous human being and an embarrassment to the Irish people. FDR was not much better!!! CDE

              • CDE,

                I agree about FDR !……. Joe Kenedy a Hood and gangster…….say it ain’t so !!!!…..LOL…. :- ).

                When you say “you will not bet on this happening”…..do you mean Iran’s Acquisition of Nuclear Weapons…or the American Jewish community moving towrdas rationality and conservatism ? I would agree that them moving thusly ain’t too likely, because this Global Info access has been there for quite a while now….and Local, State and National elections HAVE NOT to date reflected this move .

                • Don: I’m betting Iran has nuclear weapons by fall 2014, my sources in Israel estimate six bombs initially, and the movement of Jewish Americans away from Progressivism to rationality is a longer term project. I do think it will take a big jump in 2014 if Conservatives are smart enough to exploit Obama’s Antisemitism and Iran’s nuclear threat to Israel. Let’s hope!!! CDE

                  • I am aware that I am an interloper in this discussion, but have either of you two taken into account that Prophecy clealry foretells of a nuclear exchange between Iran (and numerous allied nations) and Israel? It may also be connected to the prophecy that foretells the total destruction of Demascus, the oldest continuouly inhabited city in the world.

                    If you are aware of these prophecies, then I would point you to Daniel, next. The last of his prophecy was sealed up, saying that only the last generation would understand it. Well, it is connected to the war of Gog and Megog, and a prophecy in Zecheriah about a plague. They are all speaking oto the same event and, until just recently — this generation — no one could understand th prophecy is speaking about the aftermath of a nuclear exchange.

                    So, will Iran get nukes? They will try — hard! Will they use them if they get them? I doubt they get the chance. Prophecy speaks about a nuclear exchange, but it says nothing about destruction in Israel from it. I suspect Israel hits them first.

                    • Good reply Joe….

                      As an aside and add-on I thought Jericho was the oldest with occupation at levels equalling 12,000 years.

                    • Don,

                      Quick search and it looks like you are correct. Still, Damascus has been continuously inhabited, and for the purpose of the prophecy, that is the key point: it has never been a city in which no one lived as the prophecy foretells. So, WHEN that happens… 😉

                    • No. just my memory of the area. You are correct about the important points.

                      Years ago, I studied the very early settlements and sites of the Near East, Egypt and Anatolia ….. Tell’ Amarna, Catal Huyuck, Tarsus , Uruk(Erech), Ur, Eridu, ‘On’ in the Nile Delta and most recently Gobleki Tepe.

                      A very interesting study indeed.

          • CDE (Don),

            It’s worse than than you sat where FDR is concerned. The Jews asked him to at least bomb the camps — the camps, themselves. The thinking was that this may kill those already there, but would prevent the continued use of the camps. He refused. From all my reading of the history surrounding WW II (this is where I earn my living, so take it for what you will), I have come to the conclusion that FDR was rather inclined to allow Hitler as much time as possible in his work against the Jews. After all, when the forward troops STUMBLED onto the camps — camps that were known to exist by intelligence — the camps were a surprise. No one had told the front lines about them or the troops may have pushed harder to reach them sooner.

            BUT, bombing the rail lines would have had little effect until very late in the war. It takes far too many aircraft over an extended period of time to disrupt rail traffic to any appreciable extent. That effort would not and should not have been expended to save the Jews — especially early on. But FDR DID have other ways he could have acted and didn’t.

            • I have heard that argument before regarding the rail lines. I used to believe that too….but have come to reject it, as there are switching stations and other areas where multiple lines come together. In addition a hit on a line in multiple places would have doubled the manpower needed to repair them.A continual chipping away at the rail line superstructure would most definitely have had an effect. Also the resistance could have been used in some areas to augment the rail destruction. In short I have come to see this “expanation” as more propaganda to elevate FDR’s reputation.

              But I certainly agree with you that there were additional MULTIPLE fronts where FDR and the Communists in the American Gov’t where complicit in allowing the German Socialists ( NAZIs) to exterminate Jews. Including the pre-war refusal by the USA ( FDR) to take in Jewish refugees.

              • Feel free to reject it, but it is true. The rail system in Germany was not appreciably disrupted until the 2-3 months leading up to the Normandy invasion, and even then, it only succeeded when the combined weight of BOTH Bomber Command AND the 8th Air Force was brought to bear on the marshaling yards. Even then, it required multiple sorties per aircraft every day for weeks on end whereas, before, a crew might only fly a couple sorties a week and seldom more than one per day. What’s more, before the summer of 1944, this commitment of bombers in daylight would have been impossible due to the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe. The only reason daylight bombing survived was because Lemay pulled his boys back and waited on the long range P-38, P-47 and especially the P-51. Until then, there was serious discussion about moving the U.S. B-17’s and B-24s to the night bombing campaign — especially after the 2nd Schweinfurt raid.

                The fact is, until this time, the Allies simply could not focus the concentrated bombing necessary to stop rail traffic. We must remember, there were no smart bombs then, and destroying the marshaling yards usually did not happen until the rest of whatever city they were in had been destroyed first. Until that point, they could easily be repaired by night. Rail simply is not that hard to repair so long as the labor force remains intact.

              • As for FDR’s refusal to take Jewish refugees: he DEFINITELY has blood on his hands there.

                But I would beg you to do some reading about how hard it was to cut the rail lines. The tactical problems and the realities about how easy it is to repair rail speak otherwise. Don, the Germans used a different gauge rail than the Russians. This is one of the things that slowed them down in Russia: they had to change the rail as they advanced to keep up supply lines. And yet, there are cases where they converted 50, 60 and even 70 MILES of rail in a 24 hour period to keep up with the advances. How hard would it be to fix a couple hundred yards in 2, 3 or even 5 places compared to that? And remember, you are not really destroying the equipment as much as you are uprooting the ties and the ground upon which they are laid. Hardened steel simply didn’t break up under GP bombing. That’s why the sub pens were never knocked out.

                • Hence my use of the words “Chipping away” , forcing a use ( diversion) of resources, thus the allies would’ve controlled part of what and where and How the German Socialists allocated their efforts, men and material ( and Control is the Key)…….

                  and also Nexus points where known weak points versus single exposed lines. There were ways.

                  I would ask you to consider the HUGE re-habiltation efforts ( even ongoni) to elevate FDRs Reputation ….. he is/was the Uber Public face of American Liberalism ( Socialism) …. thus the need to equate him on a level with Washington et al.

                  • DOn,

                    I do nt disagree that there are HUGE efforts to rehabilitate FDR. I agree. I am well aware of them. SO I am NOT defenidng him or making excuses for him. I am defending the military commanders who would have and did oppose the use of diverted resources on the rail lines — especially since you make it sound as though they did not bomb the marshaling yards (the choke points you speak of) before Normandy. They did. Rail yards — where all the lines come together, were bombed from the start to the end of the bombing campaign, and to little effect. This is why the military would have opposed the bombing of the rails to disrupt the Holocaust trains: because it would have been a wasted effort.

                    Now, if you want to talk about Mosquito strikes at low level against the guards houses and even the crematoriums, or to open huge holes in the wire to allow prisoners to escape like they did at that Gestapo prison for the French underground prisoners, THEN we’ll be talking! 🙂

                    My friend, I know this time line. Have at FDR until history accurately records his sins. I’ll help. But do not do so in a way that unfairly and unjustly condemns the U.S. military in the process…please 🙂

                    • My comments have nothing to do with the Military ( except maybe a very small cadre), they have to do with FDR, Harry Hopkins, Laughlin Currie and similar characters…..as evidence by policy pre-war.

                      Still maintain constinued air attacks throughout would’ve ad effect. And I DID mention Resistance combined efforts ( Ground). One other thing it would have accomplished is Psychological….there would have been unavoidable evidence that the Allies Knew and were acting on that knowledge………..(1) those on the Ground ….Jews, Gentiles and Resistance fighters may have reacted in ways supportive. It would have given More Jews hope at the very least and perhaps spwned attempts like in the Ghettos….except earlier. (2) The German Socialists ( NAZIs) were terrified of being discovered in their “work” thus it would possibly have lessened some of the Murdering especially the high rate which occured at the end when the Socialists (NAZIs) were trying to cover their tracks and witnesses at a Fever pace. (3) SOME in the German command may have had second thoughts about cayying out their parts of the plan….Transportation etc….

                      At the very least it would have been a Physical demonstration early on of the Moral differences between the allies and the Axis.

                    • There was more than that FDR could have done to help — had he wanted to. His ambassador to Germany was warning him about this for years leading up to the start of the war, but he turned a deaf ear. I’m just telling you that the attacks on the rail lines would not have had the effect you think they would have. This is a known fact. The Allies DID attack the rails from the start to the end of the war — underground included Until they turned the entire might of the combined air forces against the oil and transportation structure in April/May of ’44, they just couldn’t do much that could not be quickly repaired. And before that time, they did not have enough aircraft to do the job — or the fighters to protect them. Before March ’44, the Luftwaffe was still a very deadly foe. And rail lines are not as easily disrupted as you think. Study the work the partisans did in Russia and you’ll see what I mean. At best, it would have been an inconvenience.

                      Like I said, hitting the barracks and killing buildings would have helped. But so would a world-wide publicity campaign with the pictures FDR had. That might have even turned the Scandinavian countries against Hitler, and if it had, THAT would have really hurt him and his war effort.

                      Don, when it comes down to it, hitting the rails was not going to help because of the nature of the target and assets required to do the job. The real condemnation here is that FDR did not o anything before the war and did not assign the more effective actions available during it.

                      BTW: Churchill is equally as guilty here (Stalin didn’t care at all, so I ignore him).

                    • Don,

                      I was thinking about this. Let me apologize and then clarify. First, I am not trying to disagree with you just to do so. I was just trying to share the military history here.

                      Now, let me explain why. If we attack FDR for not bombing the rail roads, his defenders could say it would not have worked — AND THEY WILL BE CORRECT! The Army Air Corps and Bomber Command simply did not have the resources to do what you suggest until half way through 1944. The massive survey they did on the effects of the strategic bombing campaign after the war affirms this.

                      So, to my way of thinking, the best attack against FDR that does NOT allow his apologists a way out is to go after him for the things that WOULD HAVE worked (because they DID work when used to help military prisoners). I named a few, there were more. If we hammer FDR on THOSE grounds, his apologists are screwed because the same record that shows bombing rail roads is ineffective shows these other methods were effective.

                      Does this make sense to you?

  2. CDE,

    Only one problem with your explanation. The reason NAZI’s are thought to be on the Right and Communists on the Left is that NAZI’s ARE on the Right….the Right of the LEFT SIDE of the spectrum. In other words, Fascism can also be “conservative” — in the TRUE sense of the word (conserve the status quo, to include national identity; culture).

    So, to my way of thinking, you would have to explain hos the American “conservative movement” is not in this position before you can say it is not fascistic in nature. Given that the “conservatives” in this nation seem to have no real issue with corporations having close ties to govt., I think you might want to give this some serious consideration. After all, it was the leader of the “conservative movement” at the time who said he had to “abandon the free market to save it.” To date, I do not think it has been “saved.” Rather, Bush ‘W’ seems to have handed the economy firmly over to govt. control, and THAT, my friend, is solidly within the definition of Fascism — is it not?

    • Joe: Good questions in the form of statements!!! I always distinguish between “Conservatism” and the “American Conservative Movement” for precisely the reason you provide. American Conservatives are actually much closer to libertarianism than any of the continental parties and movements that use the same label. European Conservatives are often committed to bringing back some form of the old order in whatever nation they are located, so in some ways Fascism in Italy and Spain (and elsewhere, although other nations don’t often discuss their own Fascist and Nazi movements) and Nazism in Germany sought to use the fantasies of reigniting the ancient glories of Rome, Spain and the Germanic Empire to get their own low-information citizens going. Thus, the propaganda utilized by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco positioned their parties as “Conservative” while their actual goals were all “Collectivist,” each in their own ways.

      One of the many reasons I have never supported a political party or the American Conservative movement is because of the tendency of those groups to provide unwarranted support for large corporations, while most American citizens own and work in small businesses. The American small business and entrepreneurial sectors are a large part of American exceptionalism, which Our Dear Leader denies even exist. Big corporations around the world have been shedding jobs for at least two decades, but Big Government is more comfortable dealing with Big Business, because we small fry tend to be free thinkers who detest Big Government and the price it exacts from the American economy. And yes, these actions are essentially Fascist and Mr. Bush was mistaken to move in that direction, but President Bush is a Conservative, not a libertarian. CDE

      • CDE,

        You REALLY need to research some of my older posts 😉

        Look up my posts on Conservatives, Fascism and Corporations. I think you might be surprised to find out you are beating down a path just off to one side of the avenue I’ve already blazed on the RNL (and I have ALL the wounds and scars to show for it 🙂 )

        • Joe: Wounds in a noble cause, my friend, should not be painful!!! They are a badge of honor. Somebody important must have said that at some point!!! CDE

    • Joe,

      One ( not the Only) Problem with YOUR explanation…. is that Facism is Solidly in the SOCIALIST camp. From the 1919 Italian Fascists all the way up the Nazis ( National Socialist Party) in Germany.

      Conservatives today, Probably even Charles ( although I don’t want to speak for him) Do NOT consider G W Bush a Conservative…. nor Rove….nor McCain….nor Christie and etc.

      You have made a Good case elsewhere about re-introducing the Progressive GOP going back as far as Teddy Roosevelt. But now seem hell-bent on Associarting the Tea Party and other Conservative groups as Fascists….Nazis. Nancy Pelosi in fact has said the very same thing you are now saying.

      I think if we are to be Honest…..we have to call the current Political Dialogue as it is being “practiced”……..And there are certainly enough youtube examples to show the connection between your rhetoric and the Democrat hyperbole….n’est pas ?

      • Don,

        Please show me where I made the case that the TEA Party is Fascist?

        But, OK, we can call things according tot he way they are being practiced. So why not sit down ans shut up? You have lost. As practiced, the Constitution is alive, the “necessary and proper” clause allows EVERYTHING Congress wants to do and the President can rule by decree because of Executive Orders. AND DO NOT TRY TO REDEFINE OR CORRECT THESE UNDERSTANDINGS! I do not want to see you willingly cross over into hypocrisy on top of irrationality.

        Don, re-read what you just wrote. If I did not know you better, I would be inclined to believe you have adopted the Left’s manner of argument.

        • Joe,

          You are making equivalence Relationships….. rhetorically.

          And even the Low-info voter would get that part of your message.

          You imply Conservative are Fascists ( and stupid because they don’t follow your line of reasoning vis a vis the Constitution), the TP wants an adherence to the Constitution and Conservatives today want the same….and the TP uses the term Constitutional and Conservative oftentimes interchangably….ergo by your implications….Conservatives are Stupid and are Fascists and so conservative Groups like the TP are Stupid and Fascist.

          Which is essentially the dominant political copy current today.

          • Don,

            I have said the Republican PARTY is as fascist as the Democrat Party/Progressives. If Conservatives support the Party and are tainted in the process, then so be it. Are you willing to forgive every Democrat who just says they are not Progressives? I doubt it, and nor should you. But this does not excuse you are me or any of us who support the opposite side of the same coin.

            As for the TEA Party and COnservatives wanting to adhere to the Constitution: I have been trying to explain that many of those who consider themselves to be doing so are as far from the Founders’ original intent as those they attack on the Left. SO, if we dismiss the ORIGINAL definitions of things in favor of the modern, you have just embraced the living document argument and, therefore, have entered into an area where you no longer have the moral high ground and are seeking to win by might. Well, if this is what you want, good luck. You are a better person than those on the Left, so they will most likely defeat you — because they do not mind embracing evil to get what they want.

            As for Conservatives being stupid: you need to read closer. Go to The RTC and read the post I put up last night — before this current exchange. I specifically address this point in that post. In fact, it is because I believe Conservatives still respond to reason that I address these issues with them.

            I am “trying” to help people shore up what they believe: to help them make sure they not only know what it is, but also why. All I see you doing is trying to kill the prophet.

            • Prophet ??

              I am clearly saying I see you trying to Kill the GOP without concomittant effort towards the Clear Democrat socialist dismantlers of the Republic.

              Most importantly, People need a Practical Place to go, to be effective in the short run ……. Sometimes the mountain has to be moved closer right? even if only by bucketfulls……….. Which BTW was FIRST articulated in the story of Hanuman. Yet another stolen metaphor by the “religion of pieces”.

              • Experience has shown that “running to the GOP” has only resulted in jumping on a mountain that is still sliding to the Left. So you think the train is better than the plane and are screaming that those who want to get off of BOTH are the ones who are driving the train and plane — or causing them both to go faster.

                Either way, you’re still fornicating for chastity while beating Mother Superior for trying to correct the immoral action.

    • Joe: A quick comment following up on your seeming equation of FDR and Churchill’s roles in failing to act against the Nazi’s execution of their Final Solution of exterminating the world’s Jews. I’ve read about seven biographies of Sir Winston, from various perspectives. I’ve also read Churchill’s own detailed history of WW II. The Prime Minister played a very tough hand in trying to get American material support, let alone our entry into the war, over the course of several years. He was very aware of Joe Kennedy’s constant pro-Hitler and anti-Semitic communications to FDR, and FDR’s own weakness as a leader. He extended himself, kept his own legitimately huge ego under control, and endured Roosevelt’s sneers and insults in order to save the civilized world, which he knew England and its Empire could not accomplish by themselves. I cannot remotely equate Churchill’s role and the cowardly indecision of Roosevelt, but the real villein of the Final Solution, after the Nazis, was Joe Kennedy, with help from Charles Lindbergh, who both deserve the derision of history. CDE

      • CDE,

        Oh, do not be so quick to lionize Churchill. He forced a deal on FDR that guaranteed the loss of Eastern Europe to the Communists. He also pressured FDR into invading Italy, something that was not necessary but was done to appease the Communists. The Italian campaign cost many lives that needn’t have been wasted. Instead, the Allies could have and should have invaded Europe earlier. And had they done so, it would have been far less costly than it ended up being as the Germans were nowhere near ready to defend in 1943.

        I like Churchill — a lot. But I am not going to give him a pass. I know far too much about what he did to do that.

        • Joe: I find nothing at all wrong with your possessing a vital intellectual curiosity, and a willingness to study hard and thoroughly when you discover an area worth your attention. I have always studied what has interested me, when that interest developed, which often has meant I have been intensely studying things that had nothing to do with what I was supposed to be studying in my formal academic programs. Fortunately, my brain has always been able to assimilate and organize information quite rapidly, which has saved my sorry butt more than a few times. Bottom line for me is that I wouldn’t trade my intellectual curiosity for anything and you should consider yours a gift from God. Most people are satisfied watching reruns of reality TV shows every evening, and that’s fine for them. Other people are happy being told how to live their lives and what is important for them and their families, which is fine for them! But how much more exciting and rewarding is constantly finding new and interesting things to explore??? And you even get to write about them, and at least some of us listen and respond!!!

          And frankly, why should you ever care whether anyone else even thinks about the things you know??? Isn’t that their loss??? If you choose to share your ideas, isn’t that a kindness on your part??? I have rules, Joe, that work for me in this area. An important one is that I only share my ideas where I think there is value in doing so, both for me and for those with whom I choose to share them. This allows me to refine what I think I know, and to decide how confident I actually am in my positions. I never regard any issue or idea as settled, because I am not arrogant enough to think I necessarily know all there is to know on any given subject. RioNorte has proven to be a great place for me to share and test ideas, and I suspect it does the same for you…interesting feedback, great interaction and really good people!!!

          Joe, my ability to sleep soundly and long (if I choose to) is a fairly recent phenomenon, that seems to arrived when I finally managed to become less of a driven man, and began to appreciate the many blessings I enjoy. I believe God touches each of us in the way we need to be touched. As for myself, I think Einstein summarized my experience to date quite well when he remarked, “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.” My understandings have come over the course of my life, and I do take great comfort in my limited ability to understand what I have read in the Jewish and Christian scriptures, where I believe the Eternal God has chosen to be revealed to me. So yes, the Lord is my refuge and my strength, an ever present help in times of trouble, which is a wonderfully comforting thing to know!!! Cheers, CDE

        • Joe: Churchill was the greatest leader of the 20th century, with Ronald Reagan being the only possible competition for that honor!!! While that may be damning with great praise, Sir Winston make many colossal mistakes, while being the single individual most responsible for the preservation of Western civilization from the horrors of Hitler and the Nazis and what would have been their Final Solution for us all who value freedom and detest Collectivism in all its forms. Roosevelt and Stalin marginalized Churchill at Yalta and in other two-way conversations that should have included him as an equal partner. Roosevelt was an arrogant fool, who was way out of his depth with Stalin, and FDR’s ego and less than brilliant intellect made him a perfect dupe for Stalin, who was probably a high functioning sociopath. I readily acknowledge Churchill’s bad decisions, and his bias for action over endless deliberation, which was Roosevelt’s approach. Gallipoli, the Italian Campaign and other Churchill mistakes were things he acknowledged, but I think Roosevelt bears the blame for allowing Stalin to enslave the Eastern Europeans. Had Roosevelt included Churchill in his talks with Stalin, things might have gone differently. My statements are based entirely on my knowledge of the period in question, and I am open to information from additional sources. Cheers, CDE

  3. Fascist are anti-democratic. So are American conservatives. Democracy is fine to the American conservative as long as it doesn’t violate their principles.

    I ask you.

    would you rather have a referendum take place and the majority vote for and implement democratic communism. Workers’ committees at factories and farms deciding how to produce to meet their needs.
    An unelected government that protects private property.

    • The NAZI’s were fascist. They held elections — just like Stalin did (and with the same result in both cases…lol).

      Democracy is NOT an “American” principle — it is a PROGRESSIVE principle (i.e. Communist)

      And I am fine with an unelected government — so long as it is assembled by a method that protects the principles of republicanism.

      • Joe: My concern is that by increasing the number of unemployed, government dependent Americans as a percentage of the overall US population, the Progressives could build the ability to destroy the American economy by electing a Congress of Maxine Waters and Barnie Frank look-alikes. These studs are insipid even by political standards and they are clueless about the economic effects of political actions!!! CDE

          • Joe: I don’t think we’re there yet in terms of an insurmountable underclass that will vote Progressive politicians into office into perpetuity. By my calculations, about 15% of the US population now falls into the permanently unemployed and government dependent underclass. That may constitute 30% of Obama voters who were still above ground in 2012. That is a huge advantage, but not yet insurmountable. The Progressives are rapidly losing the young voters, who are recognizing Obamacare and other Progressive wealth and income transfer schemes for what they are…Ponzi schemes on a massive scale. Hispanics are also jumping ship, many for the same reasons, and even African Americans are no longer monolithic in their support for Progressivism and Obama. Something about entering the Middle Class and seeing so much of one’s paycheck ($1.0-trillion last year alone) going to fund welfare programs tends to focus the mind. And the continuing revelations about large scale deception and fraud by the President and his surrogates has deeply troubled many Americans across the political spectrum. Finally, my theory is that the GOP should offer to have Zeke Emmanuel, one of the principle authors of Obamacare, interviewed by Megan Kelly or Charles Krauthammer every week until the next election. I’ve dealt with many egotistical and arrogant people in my life, including myself some times, but I’ve never experienced anyone as grating and so possessed of hubris in my life!!! I’d contribute to that program!! CDE

            • CDE,

              I’m under the impression that more than 50% of this nation draws some form of un-earned money from the govt. every year. Add Social Security recipients to that mix and you have definitely crossed the Rubicon. I think Utah even posted something to this effect not long ago (could be wrong, but I think this is where I first saw the figures)

              Then we have to start throwing in all the corporate welfare teet-suckers on top of the individuals.

              See where the math is going on this?

      • “And I am fine with an unelected government — so long as it is assembled by a method that protects the principles of republicanism.”

        So you are indeed fine with a dictatorship as long as it is Joe approved.
        What exactly do you mean by republicanism?

        • No, Karl,

          You just do not have a mindset that understands the principles of liberty well enough to think people can create a government STRUCTURE that can protect people by its structure, itself. In other words, you have no imagination or are a shallow thinker.

          If the U.S. Constitution were to return to the point where Senators are appointed by the States (and the States are left to decide how this is done), and the Congressional Congress returns to electing the President and we make just ONE more change, we will have the very form of government about which I am speaking — and in which I am perfectly content to live.

          That ONE change would be this: instead of electing Representatives, we select them by lottery of citizens in good standing (mentally competent and without criminal record).

          That’s it. You now have a republican government, based in the rule of law, that has no DIRECTLY elected representatives and I believe it would not only work, it would work better than that which the founders created.

        • Karl,

          There’s another aspect of your precious “democracy” that you ‘useful idiots’ do not understand (but your masters depend upon because they think they are able to manipulate it). Democracy IS tyranny.

          Now, if you doubt me, let’s try a little thought experiment. How much trust would you place in “democracy” if the people were asked to vote on whether or not you get to live, and the “People” are all radical right-wing nut jobs???

          If you are unwilling to submit to that vote and accept the outcome as ‘legitimate,’ then stop talking to us about ‘democracy.’ But if you ARE OK with it, let me get you a ticket to Iran so we can put your belief to the test. 🙂

          • The biggest anti-democracy straw-man has just re-surfaced. The everyone votes to kill you fallacy. Does this thought experiment somehow show that tyranny by an individual. Supreme Leader of the church of Joe decides to kill you. Is somehow more legitimate?
            There is no legitimate defense for tyranny of the individual. Dictatorships die with the dictator. Dictatorship create unstable political environments, it is the capitalism of political thought. For stability and long-term growth, you need democracy. It is ridiculous that right-wingers demand a state that is small enough to drown in a bathtub, but is unaccountable to the people.

            “people can create a government STRUCTURE that can protect people by its structure”
            What is the structure a divine invention somehow free of man’s ‘sinful’ nature?
            “That ONE change would be this: instead of electing Representatives, we select them by lottery of citizens in good standing (mentally competent and without criminal record).”
            But that’s unconstitutional.

            What is wrong with democracy? What is wrong with

            “And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need”
            Acts 2:44-2:45

            Are you honestly afraid, people will vote to kill you? I don’t know what material object you own that you are so afraid might get taken away from you by majority vote. But is it not time to put people before profits/property/material objects.

            You say you pray for me, and I do not doubt it. But I hope you and many others out there will understand all men are brothers.

            • Karl,

              First, please do not speak to us abut fallacies. I have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not know what they are or care enough to avoid using them in most every comment you post.

              Next, ‘the vote to kill’ illustration is NOT a fallacy. We know this because IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE! There are numerous examples in history where the “majority” consented to consider certain people to be less than human and, thus, could be killed without criminal reprisal. Mormons in the United States and Germans under Woodrow Wilson would be just two such examples, not to mention blacks in Colonial times. (see why I tell you not to speak about matters of logical?)

              Next, YOU have made the argument for legitimate defense against tyranny. When you assert that the workers are being exploited and that this ought not be based in a material and labor paradigm, you have just made such a defense. (Again, do not speak to us about matters of logic and reason: you do not understand them).

              “What is the structure a divine invention somehow free of man’s ‘sinful’ nature?”

              First, why don’t you try to explain how this works in relation to Communism. Every time we point out that Communism cannot work because of man’s sinful nature, you ignore us. And now, when it suits your purpose, you use the same argument (one more time, do not try to reason.)

              Second, man’s sinful nature has nothing to do with this issue (a false assertion on your part). Man can create a structure that HELPS to restrain tyranny. We know this because a tyrant has already complained about the restrictions of such a government — OBAMA!

              As to your quoting the Bible. Why don’t you tell people that history records this effort at Communism within the Christian faith FAILED! The Apostle Paul had to ask the other 12 Churches for money to rescue the Church in Jerusalem (where this happened). So, apparently, you do not know Scripture any better than you understand logic.

              Finally, when you use govt. to “put people before material,” YOU are the one admitting you are a tyrant. What am I afraid of having taken from me? EVERYTHING — because it already is being taken to give to the evil among us who think they are someone sanctified in the refusal to work. NEWS FLASH: the poor can be just as evil as the rich. greed does not recognize bank account balances, Karl.

              • “First, please do not speak to us abut fallacies. I have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not know what they are or care enough to avoid using them in most every comment you post.”

                THANK YOU JOE for summing up everything Karl has ever posted here.

    • Karl: Private property ownership and protection is essential to any economic growth, and allowing workers and their unions to make business decisions already has a name…it is called Detroit!!! CDE

      • Perfect Comment and Observation CDE.

        Private Property is also essential to Personal Freedom ………. Life, Liberty and the *Pursuit of one’s Path in life ( and the Property one builds) *… ie, the ‘Pursuit of Happiness ‘.

        • Don,

          You do realize — do you not — that the “pursuit of happiness” meant a GREAT DEAL more to the founders than it does to us today? To them, property was an important part of it, but only a part — and even then, not the largest part. To them, happiness was inseparable from virtue, and so, the pursuit of happiness was the pursuit of virtue. We no longer understand this because we do not know the classic philosophers, nor Blackstone nor do we read our Scripture — all f which explained this concept.

          I submit that this is why people like Karl have so much trouble understanding why their ideas do not work, as well as the reason why so many who think their envy is noble do not understand that they are acting more immorally than ‘the rich’ they accuse of being the source of all pain.

          • Yes…… I didn’t want to get too intertwined with concepts, so I kept to CDE’s reference of Private Property……but your pointing out the association with pursuit of happiness also being connected to the pursuit of virtue leads right in to the further connection to “Free Will”.

            Thus….*a Great Circle*……… Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness–pursuit of Virtue—Private Property as an expression of Free Will ( given through Providence) and most importantly Private Property as the vehicle to the EXCERCISE OF Free Will in a political Society….leading back to Liberty….. and of course the right to Life ( given by Natural Law ) in order for the Circle to be freely expressed.

            I don’t even bother with this with the likes of Karl ……… because He/She is motivated by hate and envy…..the embodiment of the opposite of Light.

            I know you know what I mean.

  4. Socialism, communism and fscism are all versions of the same philosphy. It is a leftist philosophy ot of the right. The media started calling hard line communist “right wing” as compared with soft communist. They weren’t right wing in fact they were true communist who believe violence and intimidation are essential to create pure left wing communism. Fascism is very close to communism with one major difference; instead of the government owning the means of production they allowed factory owners to retain ownership and control of the production but required that they follow government mandate. Given how poorly communism is at producing goods and services this is probably a wise decision. But never the less Fascism is merely socialism with violence and intimidation much like communism.

    • Windy: I hope my new model makes it clearer which political and economic systems share the same roots. And since the American Conservative Movement dropped it support for the French Monarchy some time ago, I’d love to see the Left – Right continuum fall into disuse, the sooner the better. But as my final comment on that paradigm, all of the really bad political and economic ideas are found on the heretofore political “Left.” Marxism, Fascism, Nazism, Communism and Liberal/Progressivism are all forms of the same malignant tree of Collectivism, and political solutions are never to be found in the “middle of the Road” where establishment Democrats and Republicans keep seeking to find them. The only thing one finds in the “middle of the road” is dead animals!!! CDE

  5. Did ya have to make the south the bad guys in your “thought experiment”? Fine. I’ll jes wrassle up those Duck boys and become Queen Kells (naturally, I’ll have Mississippi as an advisor.)

    Charles, don’t you feel that a lot of this has to be rooted in the lack of education? I mean, everyone is able to label anyone, and if a young person is not educated, the bad guy becomes whomever the media (propaganda) desires.

    I tell you, this is how I learned about political affiliations. I reckon if it’s easy enough for a queen in the south, it’s easy enough for everyone: Socialism

    You have two cows. You keep one and give one to your neighbor.


    You have two cows. The government takes them both and provides you with milk.


    You have two cows. The government takes them and sells you the milk.


    You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours it down the drain.


    You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.


    You have two cows. You sell one, force the other to produce the milk of four cows and then act surprised when it drops dead.


    You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point that you must sell them both in order to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow which was a gift from your government.


    You have two cows. You keep one and give one to your neighbor.


    You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.


    You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So what?


    You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being successful. You vote people into office who tax your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The people you voted for then take the tax money and buy a cow and give it to your neighbor. You feel righteous.


    You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk. You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.


    You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point you have to sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow, which was a gift from your government.


    You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.


    You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, then pours the milk down the drain.


    You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of >four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.


    You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows.


    You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.


    You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.


    You have two cows but you don’t know where they are. You break for lunch.


    You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.


    You think you have two cows, but you don’t know what a cow looks like. You take a nap.


    You have 5000 cows, none of which belongs to you. You charge for storing them >for others.


    You have two cows. You enter into a partnership with an American corporation. Soon you have 1000 cows and the American corporation declares bankruptcy.


    You have two cows. You turn them loose in the Afghan “countryside” and they >both die. You blame the godless American infidels and the Jews.


    You have two cows. You worship them.

    PS – Who’s the hottie?

  6. kells: Great post!!! I’ve never seen the whole joke but it is mostly spot-on.

    I agree that education is key to correcting false ideas about economics, politics and history itself. Our problem in America today is that beginning with John Dewey, one of history’s great blowhards, and Woodrow Wilson, public education has been kidnapped by Progressives and their teachers’ union allies. None of my grandchildren attend public schools because they have become brainwashing centers for anti-American nonsense!!!

    The “hottie” is an old photo I found of me in 1968 as a 14-year-old Sophomore in high school. At that point I had read Marx and Engels and was still a “True Believer.” My rationale is that the pre-frontal cortex in males develops much later than in women, so anything I did before the age of 28, including marital unions, should not be held against me!!! But honestly, I was far more concerned with girls than I was with any political thinker…still am!!! CDE

        • Joe/texas: One of the areas I’ve been reading a lot about this past year has been the development and functioning of the human brain. I won’t bore you with the incredible amount we now know about the evolution and operation of our brains, but what is both clear and very important to know is that the pre frontal cortex, the location where most rational (as opposed to reactive) functions are carried out, does not fully mature until at least the age of 26 in women, and 28 in men. That is one reason why young people are generally sent to fight wars, and why most people carry out their most bizarre behavior during the time before the pre frontal cortex matures. That was the rationale behind my comment about my own behavior during my early to mid 20’s, and I’m sticking to it!!! CDE

          • “I won’t bore you with the incredible amount we now know about the evolution and operation of our brains, but what is both clear and very important to know is that the pre frontal cortex, the location where most rational (as opposed to reactive) functions are carried out, does not fully mature until at least the age of 26 in women, and 28 in men”

            This is true, and is also a good reason for repealing pot smoking laws. THC inhibits that maturation.

            • augger: As usual you are quite correct on all counts. My reading in the new physiological and economic material that has become available since the invention of the Functional MRI has been fascinating. Daniel Kahneman’s terrific book, THINKING FAST & SLOW, which outlines his 30-years of work on decision making and the activities of the brain, for which he won the Nobel Prize for Economic science in 2002, is just one of the excellent books now available. As soon as I discovered the issue of when the Pre Frontal Cortex actually matures I realized how potentially destructive heavy marijuana or other drug use before the age of 28 could be. Also, having read both of Our Dear Leader’s ghost written autobiographies, in which he admitted heavy drug abuse of both marijuana and cocaine during his late teens and early twenties, I have pondered whether Mr. Obama’s horrific judgement in a broad range of strategic situations might not be a result of damage that he did to his decision making capacity during the critical time when his brain’s Pre Frontal Cortex should have been maturing. BTW, my business partner Dr. Vicki Rackner, who writes a lot on healthcare and medical issues, was the one who got me looking in this direction, although the possible Obama linkage is my own speculation. Does this make sense, augger? CDE

          • CDE,

            LOL, understood. And I know a little of what we are learning about the brain — as well as how much we now realize we do not know where we once thought we had some idea. 😉

            Still, moral accountability occurs somewhere between the ages of 7-13, so, you can stick with your story, but… 😉

            • Joe: I’m really discussing a different issue. It is worth taking a look at Kahneman’s book, Matt Ridley’s THE RATIONAL OPTIMIST, or even Daniel Goleman’s FOCUS, to get a sense of how rapidly our knowledge of the human brain is growing.

              Most societies do treat teenagers as “men” or “women” in terms of personal responsibility, which is what bot mitzvahs and bar mitzvahs and confirmations in the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches are about. And I will stick to my personal story, for reasons that would be obvious if I had an exhibitionist inclinations. ;>)) CDE

    • Yes, even the joke can be argued…..by people who have read the constitution and know history! I was really taken aback that this was reworded in our middle schools (changing the 2 amendment in the Constitution) and our colleges (banning it from being passed out?) WTF? Perhaps conservatives must concentrate on infiltrating……(she says whilst rubbing her hands and contemplating her plan of doom…..ala Pelosi……..)

      Um, not to sound like a total cougar, but I do believe I would’ve liked to have met that boy. I believe it is solely because of the Latin familiarities that I see (they are breathtaking, after all.) One question: Why the hell did you choose horizontal and vertical lines as your outfit??!!

      • kells: Funny story on the outfit, which I hadn’t thought about in decades. I began making serious money working a variety of part-time jobs and starting my own businesses at the beginning of my Sophomore year. By the time this photo was taken I was buying all my own clothes and I bought the pants, which as I recall were bell bottoms and dreadful, like most late 60’s clothes were. I would never have bought the Italian-knit shirt for myself, but a young lady I was dating surprised me with it as a Christmas present, and my mother insisted I wear it rather than burying it in a drawer. I may have broken up with the girl so that I could stop wearing the blasted shirt!!! I’m not sure on that, but I think it happened that way. Don’t ask me about cougars as I have nothing to say on that topic!!! LOL CDE

  7. OK, someone needs ot explain soemthing to me:

    If Woodrow Wilson was actually the world’s first Fascist dictator (see Jona Goldberg and Liberal Fascism — I accept his argument to this point), and Wilson was essentially Teddy Roosevelt on steroids, and Roosevelt was a Republican, and the Republican PARTY essentially has NOT changed much since Teddy’s day, tell me again how it is that Republicans cannot be Fascist?

    Now I understand Republican does not equal Republican — in theory. HOWEVER, I have read many “Conservatives” telling Democrats that, if they still support the Democrat Party, they support the Demopcrat Party’s Progressive agenda. So, how can a Conservative support the GOP without also suypporting the GOP’s Progressive agenda? The logic would apply to both, would it not?

    And if a Progressive can be a fascist (and they can be — I would even argue ARE, how is it that those conservatives still supporting the Republican Party are exempt?

    PHILOSOPHICALLY, I understand CDE’s point. I have made it myself — MANY TIMES! But I am also shouted down by people yelling about “practicallity” and “the real world.” No one ever wants to listen to why I am concerned with ideals, principle. Well, boys and girls, this is one of the reasons principles and ideals matter: because “practically,” “in the real world,” Conservatives CAN be connected to Fascism — and by their own reasoning, no less.

    • Joe: I’m not a great ‘splainer, as Ricky would have said to Lucy, but I do see a difference between the GOP and the Progressives/Democrats today. The Progressives, who are the American version of Marxism and who have a long and dreadful history of failure in our country, have taken over the Democrat Party without a fight!!! There are no more centrist or conservative Democrats, and there used to be many. JFK and Harry Truman, along with Sam Nunn, Scoop Jackson and others, were strong anti-Communist, who also supported a strong American military. Any dissent within the Democrat Party today is coming from people who are even more extreme in their Marxist beliefs than Our Dear Leader…there are no sane, non-ideological Democrats anywhere to be found in the leadership of the Party. Eventually, average Democrats will recognize where there party has gone, but that is not occurring yet.

      Conversely, a very heated debate is currently underway for the soul and future of the Republican Party. I’m not sure that the Progressive Republicans, as led by John McCain, Lindsey Graham and John Boehner, can continue under the same flag as the rising power of the GOP, which exist in the TEA Party movement, Republican Conservatives and movement libertarians. The Republican Establishment is fighting a desperate rear-guard action against the ideas that have made Americans distinctive and exceptional since the birth of our nation. They will lose, because although the Progressive Movement high-jacked the Republican Party during the Roosevelt, Hoover, Nixon, Ford and Bush(41) administrations, the new leadership and the critical vitality of the GOP are now housed in leaders like Cruz, Lee, Paul, Scott and others and in the TEA Parties around the nation are where the Republican future is heading. As a sign of what is stirring in America, I, who has always heeded Washington’s and Jefferson’s warnings against political factions, am personally considering an affiliation with the TEA Party group in my area, since I view the political issues in play in our country today as critical for my children’s and grandchildren’s futures. I will not allow the America that I love and consider the most exceptional nation in human history to be taken down by reactionary Marxists without a fight.

      To conclude, the Democrats represent the worst elements of the Marxist/Liberal/Progressive movement and must be stopped before they destroy the last best hope for freedom on the earth, which Obama and his thugs seem determined to do. The GOP is imperfect, and it did during the 20th century allow itself to be taken over at times by the same elements that have now completely taken over the Democrat Party. But the GOP is the only organization with the national organization and financial base to beat the Progressives and restore America to itself. So to me, the key strategy should be to capture the leadership of the GOP and carry the fight to the Progressives. My view is let’s stop wasting time and do what must be done!!! CDE

      • CDE,

        In the interest of trying to show that I am not speaking in harsh tones, might I put aside a lengthy rebuttal and ask a simple question? OK, two questions? 🙂

        Does the rank-and-file define a a group of people, or does its leadership? For example: were the Germans bad in WW II because Germans are just bad, or because of their leadership? (Think on this for a moment, then consider my next question)

        Second, if the people define the group, and the GOP is made up mostly of “conservative or conservative-leaning” individuals, then why does it keep supporting ‘right-wing’ Progressive agendas? (I say right wing in the sense that the Communists said Fascism was to the right on the spectrum of socialist ideologies and Communism was to the Left).

        YOU, and I assume the majority who read the RNL are plenty smart enough and think for themselves well enough that I think the rest of what I would have said should naturally follow from the answers to these two questions. But, if it doesn’t, I am happy to answer any questions you have in return. 🙂

        • Joe: As always, interesting questions!!! On the issue of whether leaders or followers define a group, I would suggest that leaders cannot continue to lead over a period of time if the followers do not accept and support what they are doing and where they are leading. This presumes, of course, that the followers actually know what the leader is really doing!!! Our Dear Leader majors in saying one thing and doing something else, and because most Americans still get their “news” from the Obama-compliant media, many of my friends are surprised when I mention things I’ve known for months, but they’ve never heard.

          I thought for a moment and am now moving onto your second question. I think many “traditional” Republicans have only recently become aware of the Progressive tilt that has actually been present with the GOP “leadership” for some time. A lot of that has been the work of Rand Paul, Ron Paul, Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and many Republican governors. This growing awareness is shifting the support of the large “middle” of the GOP toward the emerging Conservative/libertarian leaders and it happens more every day, at least around me. FoxNews, the WSJ and other non-propaganda media have also helped to move this process along. It is taking time, because few Americans have the interest in economics and politics that you and I and our RNL colleagues have, but I see it moving slowly forward. Once the center of the GOP shifts toward Conservatism/libertarianism it will not shift back and the center is where the votes are that win elections. And that is my short-term goal, my friend. Winning back the Senate, gaining strength in the House and in local elections, and making it clear that America has once again rejected Progressivism are critical to restoring America!!! After that we can work on dismantling the mess the Obamites have created. Hope this answers your questions. CDE

          • CDE,

            Your turn to give ME something to think about — and I will. But, as I was reading your comments, I had a thought. I posit this as just that: a thought or question.

            How does the advancement in technology coupled with the established ‘science’ of forming, shaping and directing public opinion (i.e. propaganda) change the equation for us today?

            In the past, the printing press could overcome quite a lot of government mischief, because the pace of things and the government’s baility to control them allowed the people to get ahead and stay ahead of the tyrant. But today, the tyrant can know the mind of the people almost before the people do, and he can then use the mechanisms by which information is controlled to confound the will of the people to the point where we are all chasing our tails. Or he can just threaten the 5th vote in the Supreme Court such that he changes his vote on a major case at the last minute using information gathered through the means that new technology has given him.

            In short, is it currently possible to stop the tyrant who already has control of the information and media — especially when that same tyrant is giving away free bread and encouraging games and recreational ex without consequence (i.e. Brave New World meets 1984)???

            • Good Points Joe.

              I would argue that in the past the control over info was MORE in the hands of The Powers That Be…..the education System and close-knit Communities and Families were the Balance. What ou say about the New FAST electronic dissemination of Propganda is also spot on…..but consider that this new form is also more democratic and egalitarian in the good sense.

              I feel there are FAR MORE awake people today about TPTB and what is happening……….. they are unfortunately balanced by the Complete takeover of the Education system by the Progressives and Gov’t sponsored Teachers Unions and the Breakdown of the Family ( in the Popular Press/Media). The Local Communities may be our salvation in the sense CDE and Mark Levin ( and You) talk about……….. IDK…..just thinking “outloud”.

              • Don,

                I understand what you are saying about the possibilities of the new electronic media, but I fear that we are actually so far behind the curve that we do not know how far behind we are. If you listen to Beck explaining what Google is really trying to do, it is possible we have already lost and just don’t know it. I know Beck is trying — HARD — to keep up and push his empire forward. In some sense, he is actually leading the way. But when it comes to the gathering and manipulation of information for the purpose of controlling the people,… Well, I just don’t think we actually realize what we’re up against.

                The solution is to turn it all off — ALL of it. Go back to a 1980’s life style. But they know we are already too adicted to our electronic crack. I think we are actually helping them ensalve us even as we think we are trying to educate people toward liberty 😦

                • We can’t be Luddites.

                  We have to fight the fight where it presents itself. Google and FaceBook are pretty much known Intelligence driven outfits …. a lot of people know this….. and more of us should repeat this.

                  I know Beck has been talking about this but haven’t had time to look in detail….what are the major issues he is highlighting…..direction searches, eliminating online sources in searches, storing People’s search histories ???

          • Great Great Comment Chuck !…. I agree with Texas, and on his recent Post !!

            I would Change Obama-Compliant media to Obama-Creator Media and Obama-Agency ……. America HAS NO press anymore, and that is NOT just hyperbole. Which brings me to FOX and the WSJ. FOX has shifted more left ( Today there were anchors pushing Global Warming as the Cause for the Calif Wildfires for instance) and the WSJ ( especially the Editorial pages) have been Progressive since the Turn of the Century ( 1907-1915) at least.

            So we ( Classical Liberals, Conservatives and “Libertarians” ) need to view/read them with caution, Because they TOO are Propaganda Media just slightly less so than the Usual Suspects. I’m sure you actually know to what I am refering.

            BUT…what you say about shifting the Center of the GOP towards Conservatism /libertarianism rings very true. Especially ONCE such a move happens it is VERY hard to move in another direction….like turning a large ship. And THIS IS THE PROBLEM we are facing with the Low-info voters. They have been brainwashed by the Schools and Media and EVEN new Social media……and it is likewise very difficult to “move their Ship” in a different direction.

            Your take on the GOP “center” is a bit of hope though …. because many of them WERE educated in what You and I and Joe and Texas and Utah and etc would recognize as Traditional American values ( along with the Propganda)….. so the possibility of them Re-equainting them with those values is very REAL. And I get a distinct feeling that amongst many of them there is a deep sense that things are very wrong …… and some can’t quite put their finger on it.

  8. Joe: a short answer to your excellent question is that most Democrat and Republican Presidents in the 20th century were Progressives, or incorporated Progressive ideas into their policies. Coolidge was not, nor was Eisenhower, at least in most regards. Reagan was a giant, who tried to roll back the pernicious march of Progressivism in American government and society and I think President Bush (43) was somewhat mixed in his policies, but every other president, with the possible exception of Taft, who I haven’t studied much, was a Progressive, regardless of their party affiliation.

    For me the GOP is merely the lesser of two very similar evils, although the rising generation of Republican leaders (Paul, Lee, Cruz, Scott, and even Rubio) encourage me to think the GOP may evolve into a real opposition party confronting the dominance of the Progressives, who now completely control and dominate the Democrat Party. And yes, Progressives are clearly fascist in their approach to governance and the GOP has not been much better. CDE

    • Rubio betrayed me. He is currently going hungry in my dungeon. He is the kinda fella Don likes to refer to (yet put the blame on a political party) as a traitor. So then, I noticed the piano….do you tickle them?

      • Reading is FUNdamental….and there’s a “Mental” part to that as well Hon.

        I have been Sorta Defending the Political Party to which you refer but do not mention…. ;- ) . Unless of course you mean “Libertarian” which I would never defend……but remain nonetheless puzzled because Amnesty-Rubio to my knowledge ran as a Conservative GOP…..but turned out to be a BACK_STABBING RINO MODERATE ESTABLISHMENT supporter of Big Government.

        As to his actions in relation to the Constitution ……… traitor ? Well I’ll let you fill that in……….

      • Oh and BTW Kells,

        And you can keep this tucked into the Top of your Thigh-highs in your Dungeon …. there ain’t many fellas like Don…. ;- ).

        • Don, my point was that he was backed by the Tea Party, and betrayed his conservative stance. That silly so-called Libertarian in VA was backed by liberal Democrats, and stood quite firm with his. Both did the job for their backers; whether intentionally or unintentionally.

          PS~ When I pull out the music selection from my thigh-highs, you shall be rendered hopeless, sweet Don.

          • Yes I agree about Marco the Amnesty Fraud Rubio……. BUT the Libertarian Communist in VA was supported by BOTH the Liberal Democrats AND the VA Libertarians….well documented.

            Well if your Music Selections includes Real Jazz then I’m all yours…. my lil'”Tack Annie”….. yes that’s a hint.

              • You’re amazing in a way …. how did you know I love women in Red ?

                Or Blue…or Purple…or Black…or……

                But errr this is the “Tack Annie” was a ‘ refering ta….

                * Sigh * We’ll commence with your education latter.

                  • You don’t know the Half of Chuck !!

                    I have Originals of Some the Hot Peppers and a Cracked but plays beautifully “Makin’ Friends” with a young Teagarden et al…. :- ) .

                    Though I’ve tried desparately to keep a low-profile ( ahh-Hem ! )….it appears my secret is out.

                    • Joe/Don: On the issue of the impact of new technologies on the availability and access to information, both of you are on target and the impact of this issue is possibly even greater than you address in your very interesting comments. First, as you are probably aware, there is a desperate battle being waged by the global elites, from China to the US and beyond, in a hopefully losing attempt to regain control of the information that is accessible to average citizens. In the past, every nation, including America, was able to control the information that its citizens were able to obtain, because, as Don observed, the channels were fewer and easier to restrict and control. We all know able Hurst’s creation of the Spanish American War out of whole cloth, but our government’s propaganda machine has been far more powerful than anything the private sector has ever produced. And a large part of government’s information power was derived by its ability to largely control the private media as well. As Americans we generally scoff at that idea, but I think paranoids like myself have identified patterns in government control of the media that are unmistakable. As an example, can either of you recall a situation or scandal where the information provided by the American media was not consistent with a powerful political faction within the US government. Richard Nixon became a liability to very powerful interests during his 1972 campaign and shortly thereafter the Watergate story broke, forcing him to resign. Johnson and the Vietnam War became a liability and numerous “scoops” about the war suddenly emerged that effectively destroyed our ability to execute our strategy. I can go on, but I won’t here.

                      The threat posed by an uncensored Internet is that every American citizen can now connect to information sources outside the Federal government’s control and really outside the control of any single government. Even the Chinese, who have expended enormous costs and attention have been unable to fully prevent every citizen from accessing non-Chinese sources on the Internet. This terrifies those who actually call the shots at the elite levels of societies worldwide. They are trying to force the genie back in the bottle with UN treaties, proposed taxes and other means. They will ultimately fail because the Internet is an open network that grows, shifts and embraces new technologies constantly, and the real talent will never be willing to work for governments and NGOs who are trying to control information in ways that would greatly reduce their own power and restrict their ability to benefit from the technologies they continue to build. Networks are new models and hierarchical ways of organizing information and people are already antiquated.

                      That is one reason the US, the most powerful nation in the history of the world is still engaged in the longest war in our history against a global network that our “leaders” refuse to recognize and have been largely ineffective at fighting. Old models of thought will always be disadvantaged when they confront new forms, and that is what is happening with information and political power today. I laugh my head off when the Obamites keep talking about “core al Qaeda,” as if thirty Muslims sitting in caves in Pakistan have anything to do with the real al Qaeda, which stretches worldwide, including the US, and is compartmentalized so that traditional military tactics have no chance of finding, let alone destroying an organization that grows like the Internet.

                      One of you made the point that the distribution of information channels that is proliferating today has the potential to further empower individuals, which of course is what libertarians and most American Conservatives are all about. I think that is true, but those of us who value freedom need to master the developing technologies because the dark side of this process is that central governments are constantly working to control information flows, allowing them to control their citizens and monitor our actions, and eventually our thoughts, as would have been unthinkable even ten years ago. Two of my new ventures are currently building social media applications that have allowed me to gain understandings of the power that is obtainable through the effective utilization of social media in a variety of ways. Social media is potentially far more powerful than any of the apps operating today, and the government is again trying to establish its control of things it does not even yet understand.

                      I’ll close with one other area that offers both opportunity and risk, which is the research growing out of the now completed mapping of the human genome and especially what we now know about the human brain and its development. Increasingly scientists studying the human brain know what sectors of our brains control and correlate with memory, automatic responses to particular stimuli, which portions of our brains handle executive functions, reasoning and other critical activities. They are now able to produce specific responses in the brain by knowing how and where to stimulate different parts of the brain. The old practices of stimulating hunger or thirst at drive-in movies are piddling compared to the types of results that are being produced. I’m reading several books right now that update recent research results, as far as the researchers involved are being permitted to share. My concern, gentlemen, is that the CIA and military mind control experiments of the 1950 and 1960s are now becoming potentially do-able. This concerns me because governments, especially our own, have rarely passed on the ability to weaponize new technologies and this one is potentially devastating for the cause of human freedom. I will appreciate your thoughts, and hope our friend augger will weigh in with his as well! Sleep soundly, my friends!!! CDE

                  • Sorry Charles,

                    I always hated Dates who were a tease….. For one who knows Jazz I realize I should have specified…..

                    Specifically I have the Eddie Condon’s FootWarmers version 1927/28….. though the 1929 version is great too, and both have the incomparable Jack singing on them.

                    • Don: I’ve been a big jazz fan since before my actual birth. My dad followed jazz from the Big Band era forward, and my mother was a jazz singer performing in clubs and on the radio when they met. I have some stuff from the era you mentioned, particularly Louis, Sidney Bisset, Fletcher Henderson and others, but my biggest interest have always been the Bop and Post Bop period, with Miles, Trane, Getz, Clifford Brown, Art Blakey, Brubeck and that bunch. I also enjoy the Duke, Count Basie and the great female vocalists like Ella, Sara Vaughn and Billie Holiday. I’m lucky being close to New York, as I get to see the current crew like Chick Corea, David Sanborn, Stanley Clarke and just about everyone who is still working today!!! What great music!!! I see a lot of them at The Blue Note in the Village, and the bigger acts at The Beacon on the West Side. I took my father to see Dizzy right before Gillespie passed, and Return To Forever just before my father died. He loved them all!!!

                      Very cool to find another jazz lover on RNL!!! CDE

                    • So you like Kansas City and Bop/Post Bop. My fathers Fav’s were JJ Johnson, Chet Baker, Kai Winding , Gerry Mulligan and Stan Getz. And he absolutely loved June Christy. My Mother loved the Big Bands and 1930s-1940s Billie holiday arrangements.

                      I also like the Duke and Count Basie ( My father in law loved th Kansas City scene). And I love Clifford Brown ( so Young to pass on ! )…..outside of Phila wasn’t it ?

                      I “left my heart” in the sounds of the 1920s-mid 1930s. Bix and Teschmacher, Oliver and Louis 1922/23…..and louis 1926-1931. Jelly Roll Morton ( at any time)……and those hard to find bands actually recorded in New Orleans. SouthSide Chicago during the 1920, and 1920s Jungle/ Hot bands of New York.

                      Even some of the Paul WhiteMan stuff is fantastic.

                      I leave you with an example of later “Orchestrated ” Bix….

                    • Don: Wow!!! You know your jazz!!! I really like JJ and I have several great CDs with JJ and Kai Winding. I also enjoy Curtis Fuller on trombone. I’ve never heard anyone that approaches Mulligan on baritone sax, and my Brubeck recordings with Mulligan are my favorites. I think I have 30-Getz CDs and the variety is incredible, from the early West Coast stuff to his Brazilian period with Jobin and both Gilbertos to his recordings with JJ, Mulligan, Bill Evans, Chet Baker, Oscar Peterson and at least a dozen other incredible artists. I think Clifford Brown may be the most under recognized jazz artist there has been thus far. Clifford and his wife were both killed by a drunk driver on the Pennsylvania Turnpike after finishing a gig in Philly, where he was from (as am I). Bud Powell’s younger brother Richie, who was also a great pianist with Brown and Max Roach, was killed in the same accident. My dad saw all of these guys, in many cases multiple times, along with Ellington, who I love, Basie, Dizzy, Bird, Charlie Mingus, Dexter Gordon and a lot more. He wasn’t into vocalists, but my mom had been a jazz singer, so I knew Ella and Sarah Vaughn from an early age, and found Lady Day, Julie Christy on my own.

                      I enjoy the 1920’s and 1930s artists, but I found them after the later ones, and of the Big Bands Ellington and Basie have always been my favorites. BTW, I have a great recording of Ellington and Coltrane that is one of my best. Do you get to see many acts these days? I’m fortunate in that New York still gets the older artists as well as some really good new ones. Cheers, CDE

                    • Chuck,

                      I’m sorta a Philly boy myself … though I was born in Brooklyn Heights. Don’t get to see much these days sadly. My wife likes Coltrane …… and Ole Lester. Prolly from her Father’s recordings. I love all the one’s you’ve mentioned…… Not into Charlie Parker though.

                      Have you heard the really early stuff recorded in New Orleans ? Or 1920’s Troy Floyd recorded in Texas ? Very soulful stuff. And speaking of New York and the early 1940s there’s a Recording ( Private I think ) from Minton’s in NYC. It has Thelonoius Monk and Hot Lips Page ,and I don’t remember the others…..but the Stand out is an incredable driving rythm from Charlie Christian…..it was an improv. It’s called “Up on Teddy’s Hill” I think. Has Blues overtones.

                      On the White side of things there’s a New Orleans recorded Song called “She’s Cryin’ for Me” by the NORK from 1925…..if you want to see(hear) where this music came from ( musically) try and get a listen in on that one…..Blues driven Ensemble Jazz at it’s most finest Raw form…as raw as a recording could get of course.

                  • Charles,

                    Joe of “Bakanovic” fame did some excellent posts on very EARLY propaganda work by an American….. I can’t recall his name now…… Butit was up full and running in the Wilson Admin. Maybe Joe will Chime in later with his reference….a well known name. Thissame body of work was then applied in the Corporate realm going into the 1920s. So yes Charles I feel you are correct about the weaponization of Biological advances.

                    FaceBook itself is a “weaponized” social media venture/experiment….you know that right ? I cut my teeth in Silicon Valley as it were….so I can agree about those types not wanting the constraints of an NGO, but rather using the opportunities they provide AFTER their creative work is completed ….. establishing a “working-relationship” with the Government………..TRUE Croney Capitalism at work.

                    With respect Information Control …… people like Katherine Graham, her father, her husband Phil Graham, Ben Bradlee, Joe Alsop, Cord Meyer,Brandon, and their ilk in the 1940,s through the 1970s defined this Elitist Zeitgeist wherein they believed it was PROPER for the Media to With-Hold info from the Public…..because it was FOR the Public Good. In addition these “Newspaper men were CIA agents and opperators…… Cord Meyer, Bradlee, Phil Graham and Alsop had connections with Both CIA and the FBI…….James Jesus Angleton ( CIA) was intimately associated with them as well……… I give only a few names…. I’m tired and can’t remeber the full list of “Provacatuers”……but enough for you to do a little research yourselves. I believe it was the Brandons that were given $1,500,000 by the Rockefellers to go to Calif to start a Newspaper……which predictably printed what they and the CIA wanted them to print…………………. The Point here is that News outlets and the CIA / Government collusion has been going on for a LONG time.

                    The new Meme of the internet/ cellphone/Social Media is definitely a Freeing aspect……It doesn’t mean there aren’t the same kind of things going on as with this Crowd I mentioned……but in the 1960s None of these new freeing technologies existed…………

                    • CDE (Don),

                      I am aware of EVERYTHING you are mentioning with respect to both information control and the human genome. Let’s handle the two in order.

                      First, the control of information is not new, but it became a ‘science’ under the guidance of Edward Bernays. He is considered the father of modern public relations, but it really the father of propaganda and spin. The Germans credit him for teaching them the art of propaganda. He had allies. Walter Lippmann was among his strongest.

                      But there is much more to just controlling what people hear. As you know, it is also about what they do not hear and HOW the things they are allowed to hear are worded. Language is directly connected to spin. This is why Dewey was so consumed by the study of how we think and how we use language. Materialists believe that our language controls how we think, and they are correct — to an extent. But language does not control WHAT we think, which is one of the key points these people constantly miss. Anyway, if you watch, you will notice that the materialist is always focusing on how things are worded, marketed or sold. This is a tell. It reflects this conviction that they can make anyone do anything — IF they “package” it correctly.

                      The other aspect of this is DISINFORMATION! Our government is very good at it. Aliens and UFO’s are one way they divert focus on things that they want to hide. Conspiracy theories are another. They use the ‘kook’ factor to their advantage. Case in point. In spite of his rep, Alex Jones DOES do some good work, but how many of us actually listen to him and take him seriously? Why? There you go: disinformation and character assassination in action (though Alex helps them more than he needs to).

                      Now, the human genome project. Again, this is the result of too much knowledge and not enough wisdom. In spite of what they claim, all these people have done is mapped a correlation — NOT a concrete causal relationship. True, they may have identified which genes cause some deformities or diseases, but then, if they have things down so well, where is the so called “homosexual” gene? They have not found it because it does not exist. The same applies for correlations in the brain and thinking patterns. Al Gore claimed that ‘science’ will soon make it possible to identify who is likely to be “conservative” while that person is still in the womb. WARNING, WARNING, WARNING: if you think these geneticists will not use this to forcibly abort these babies in the not too distant future, YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE! They are already talking about censoring the Internet so they can control opposition voices based on the assertion that we are “bad” for society. Well, why expend the effort if you can just eliminate the source of the problem all together? It is just a few eggs in a bigger omelet to these people.

                      So, CDE, is this enough to demonstrate that I DO understand? Because there is much, MUCH more we could discuss 🙂

                    • Yes….. Edward Bernays and Walter Lippmann….those were the references I was thinking of !!

                      Good Discussion Here ! ………. The Brain HAS been mapped WRT cognitative Function Too Joe…and even wrt where colors and emotions interact……many many areas………. it’s scary and fascinating at the same time.

                    • Don,

                      The brain has been mapped, but those studying brin injury have noted that some functions can be taken over by other parts of the brain, so nothing they “think” they know is as fixed as they tend to assume.

                    • That’s right !!

                      And this is very exciting ….. the Brain is much more “Elastic” than previously thought. Healthy parts can take over the function of Damaged parts and new info never stops being processed. In fact the Brain appears in many respects more like a Muscle…. in that it increases with use ( pathways AND Glial Cells–support Cells ).

                      A very very different picture indeed ………… The Liberal / Communist disease is proving intractable however, no surprise there. In many cases it in fact rapidly assumes control of ALL function not related to the intact and outflow of oral nutrients……………. Sad really.

            • Don: My understanding is that Marco Rubio has backed out of his involvement with McCain and Graham and their unimpressive Senate immigration bill. What his motivation was for that change I do not know. The Faux Libertarian gubernatorial candidate in Virginia was outed as an Obama plant within the libertarian community early in the election cycle and every visible libertarian I know was, including myself (not that I’m particularly prominent) screaming for weeks that he was a fraud. I’m currently working with other libertarians around the country to prevent a repeat of the disaster in Virginia. One of the problems with being a movement of ideas rather than a political party is that we libertarians do not have the means to exercise discipline against people claiming to be libertarians who do not embrace libertarian values. Most libertarians support that reality since we do not tell other people what they should believe or value, although we can listen to a candidate or review their policy positions and know immediately whether they are actually a movement libertarian.

              My solution to this dilemma is that the centers of influence within our libertarian community, REASON Magazine, Cato Institute, Manhattan Institute, Rand Paul and others, need to develop reliable communication channels nationally and ensure that Liberal/Progressive attempts to divide libertarians and American Conservatives in 2014 and 2016 by funding false flag “libertarian” frauds. I don’t think the GOP can win back the Senate, hold the House and recover the White House without receiving all Conservative and most libertarian votes. If I didn’t think that, I would be less concerned. CDE

              • My take on the Current Rubio-Fraud-of-the-Day is that the RINO establishment supporting him is trying to Create Better Optics for him…..since he was exposed as an obvious Trojan Horse to the TP and other Conservative Groups. Nothing more.

                He COULD of course just make a Clear Public Statement of repudiation of Amnesty and Support for the Immigartion Laws already on the Books…..and further His support of the Constitution and Cruz and Rand Paul and Mike Lee and etc……….. But …… Don’t hold your breath…… because he is NOT a supporter of the Constition….but of Big Government.

                I don’t take truck with anything “Libertarian” as you know…… as I know it is a Fraud (AT THIS TIME) being used to split the *GOP* and *Conservative* vote ( Notice , as Joe and Utah and others here seem to be incapable of, that I DISTINGUISHED between the two !! ). and also I said AT THIS TIME…..because I understand political realities and how high-jacking works at the Practical level.

                That was preface to me saying that the whole VA-Liberatarian back-stabbing of America incidence was a turning point for me of another Polar opposite change…………….. And that was I gained a HUGE respect for bothe Ron Paul and Rand Paul………… they seemed to be honorable men with genuine convictions. So my opinion changed based on their actions !!!……………… as likewise my opinion of the Libertarian VOTER was informed ny THEIR actions.

                But I have a new found respect for both Pauls …. they seemed to walk their walk and talk their talk……… the exact OPPOSITE of the POS Rubio BTW.

  9. Joe: I have rarely explored a topic here that you don’t know at least something about!!! The genetic engineering stuff is really frightening to me, as I’ve seen what some of the more unsavory governments around the world are willing to do first-hand, and I do not for a moment think genetic engineering would go unutilized by any number of nations, including our own under its current President. Information and mind control are also too close to being perfected to not also pose real threats. If I were not a rational optimist, I might have trouble sleeping!!! I sleep very well. CDE

    • CDE,

      My closest and longest friend (other than my wife) is the head engineer for the quality control division of one of the world’s largest electronics companies. BUG company. You’d know it if I mentioned it. VERY smart guy. Anyway, he once told me that I had learned so much about so little that I now knew everything about nothing. Think about it for a moment and you will see why I say he is brilliant — because he nailed it succinctly.

      I used to think it a curse, my friend. Now I KNOW it’s a curse. I am talking about how much I have acquired over my lifetime. I tell people I am a polymath, but they either do not know what it means or just assume I am bragging. If they only knew… 😦

      Anyway, I do not tell people this to brag. I love to learn. If people can teach me, I will suck them dry of knowledge as fast as they can feed it to me. And I love everything. I do not mind if we are talking about cooking, sewing, art, literature, quantum mechanics, psychology, philosophy, military sciences — you name it, I have probably studied something about it. But it comes at great, GREAT cost — because it leads to seeing things others never will.

      So, CDE, I hope you will trust me when I tell you that I envy your sound sleep. Were it not for my faith, I doubt I could continue. The Lord is my refuge, and if He is not yours, I know enough to respect whatever it is you have found that allows you that precious peace of mind. And I mean that — from the bottom of my heart.


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